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durron597
08-12-2005, 11:41 PM
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t760)
Hero (t4200)
BB (t2730)
UTG (t1865)
MP (t3945)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls t200, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t600) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, MP checks.

Turn: (t600) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t400</font>, BB calls t400, MP folds.

River: (t1400) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero ... ?

ChuckyB
08-13-2005, 12:11 AM
bets 2/3rds to the full pot, dancing with his top-two pair.

durron597
08-13-2005, 12:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
bets 2/3rds to the full pot, dancing with his top-two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I look very weak right now, so he might bet if checked to, and if he raises me he has the flush most of the time but I still have to call because of stack sizes and pot size.

inyaface
08-13-2005, 12:32 AM
check call

bluefeet
08-13-2005, 12:34 AM
[ QUOTE ]
if he raises me he has the flush most of the time but I still have to call because of stack sizes and pot size.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you're committed, i like continuing w/ the weak t400 from the turn. with the rags on the flop+turn, he could be calling you down here with middle pair just as often as flush chasing. if he DOESN'T have the flush, he's likely to just accept the check on the river. if he has intentions of bluffing a miss - he'd be just as inclinded to do so with your t400 bet as he would a check (maybe even more so, with a flush card that might scare HIM).

durron597
08-13-2005, 09:01 AM
[ QUOTE ]

if you're committed, i like continuing w/ the weak t400 from the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, the t400 is about the biggest bet that doesn't commit me to call a push.

The other thing to consider is that he will never almost never bluff raise me. But he might bluff bet when checked to. On the other hand he may have viewed my bet as a semibluff and/or has a hand worthy of showdown that he can check behind. Really the only hands that he might check behind for a free showdown are like 99-JJ that he was slowplaying? I don't know if that's worth the times my check induces a bluff...

wildzer0
08-13-2005, 09:14 AM
It woudl be helpful if you had a read on bb, is he the type to call down with any piece of the flop? A lot of players will call off all their chips here with 85o, etc. If he's this type of player make a value bet on the river, you're probably still ahead. In general I wouldn't worry too much about the flush here. Your opponents call on the turn could mean overcards, a flush draw, a small pair, Ax, etc. I'm not sure what buy in this is, but at a 33 or under, this would be my line.

bennies
08-13-2005, 09:41 AM
R U committed? As usual this is the question that you would like to answer before doing anything on the river.

If not, then check-call a reasonable bet.

If yes, and I would be here, his remaining stack of 2100 is too shallow to scare me off a 1400 pot. I'd simply pretend he has something else than a flush/straight and make a nice valuebet.

Unarmed
08-13-2005, 10:05 AM
He's the BB, there's really no reason to fear the flush as his hand range is any two. Just check and let him bluff into you.

bennies
08-13-2005, 10:09 AM
I know you know this (with 15xx posts, geez....) but his range is not any two after he calls the turn bet. I'd say he has the flush about 25% of the time, what do you think?

Also, why do you think he will bluff at the pot?

durron597
08-13-2005, 10:37 AM
[ QUOTE ]

Also, why do you think he will bluff at the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't the issue. The issue is that he will probably bet with more hands than will call a bet, because my turn bet didn't really mean anything and could have been a bluff after the flop checked around.

The other reason to check is that we puke if we get raised (which we would most likely only do with a flush).

Unarmed
08-13-2005, 10:37 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I know you know this (with 15xx posts, geez....) but his range is not any two after he calls the turn bet. I'd say he has the flush about 25% of the time, what do you think?

Also, why do you think he will bluff at the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant he's in the BB with any 3, any 5, any 6, any 8, all of which probably call the turn given the action and typical opponent. FD often bets the flop here, FD sometimes raises te turn here, etc, etc, etc. 25% is way high IMO.

He'll bet the river because people love to bluff when someone shows obvious weakness, even if they have a made hand they should probably just show down. You don't really want to bet this because both the king and the flush are scary for Villain. But thats just basic poker right, only bet on the river if a worse hand will call.

bennies
08-13-2005, 10:50 AM
thanks for elaborating on your opinions (durron too). You are most likely right. I only feel you are underestimating one thing...




RULE 27 of Poker: People love to call.

inyaface
08-13-2005, 11:44 AM
What about underestimating keeping a small pot with the big stack when your in a pretty good position on the bubble. Also you already stand to win a sizable pot if you have the best hand.

The once and future king
08-13-2005, 12:35 PM
PVS preflop.

Freudian
08-13-2005, 12:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
He's the BB, there's really no reason to fear the flush as his hand range is any two. Just check and let him bluff into you.

[/ QUOTE ]

08-13-2005, 03:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He's the BB, there's really no reason to fear the flush as his hand range is any two. Just check and let him bluff into you.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

UVaHoo
08-13-2005, 04:09 PM
I like check/calling.

I don't think he has a flush draw, as a reasonably aggressive player with a decent stack might take a shot in a small pot with a flush draw after you had already checked.

I agree that he'll take a shot at the pot with more hands than he'll call your bet with, and if he does have the flush, he's not going to try to scare you out of the hand by betting too much. Even if he checks it down, you extend your chip lead and are in great position after taking down a reasonable pot.

durron597
08-13-2005, 07:13 PM
Alright, I'm glad to see that my check was correct. He had one of the few hands that he was likely to check behind with; 99, which made me wish I had bet.

bennies
08-14-2005, 05:46 AM
From your own post: "You don't really want to bet this because both the king and the flush are scary for Villain. But thats just basic poker right, only bet on the river if a worse hand will call."

If we agree that both the king and the flush is scary for villain, then I think he'll check behind with any pair, including a 3 a 6 an 8 etc. However, I don't think he'd be scared out of calling your bet with any of these hands.

You guys have more experience though, in general, do people bet more hands than they call? It seems to me that Sklansky leaves this question unanswered.

durron597
08-14-2005, 01:32 PM
Well, say he had a hand like 45 or A6. Both of these hands while having a shot to win the pot when he calls the turn, very likely will not call a river bet (45 never) but they will often bet when checked to in order to take down the pot uncontested. Plus we lose chips when a flush pushes when they might make a small value bet on the river. Plus a hand like 45 may make a post-oak bluff instead of pushing to try to show strength.