I have top pair, but that river is killing me

[Schizo]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, UTG calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

NO read of course

[Petro]

I think this is a really easy fold. You beat only a pure bluff, a worse Ten (and there aren't many), or a very weird line by an underpair. The donkbet on the flop screams draw.

On subsequent hands I would be conscious that others might try taking shots at me with scare cards.

[vinnox]

[ QUOTE ]
The donkbet on the flop screams draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except no flop draws made it.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The donkbet on the flop screams draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except no flop draws made it.

[/ QUOTE ]

A/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/spade.gif sure as hell made it.

[Petro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The donkbet on the flop screams draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except no flop draws made it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see a donk doing this with a 6 and a flushdraw. Or a 6 and an overcard.

[vinnox]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The donkbet on the flop screams draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except no flop draws made it.

[/ QUOTE ]

A/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/spade.gif sure as hell made it.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, one out of many possible draws made it. I call at 12.5:1 with top pair 4-handed.

[Schizo]

Entity so you call or fold?

[Jinx]

Meh, it's close. You can call getting 12.5:1 odds and scream [censored] when he flips over 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/club.gif, or you can fold and wonder if you got bluffed out. The thing is the answer to this question depends so much on the read of the player. If he hasn't done anything like this before and you've been at the table at least a couple of orbits, it might be a fold.

[wackjob]

I will call here, expect to lose many times, but get some good notes on my villain.

[smartalecc5]

I check the river/call.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I will call here, expect to lose many times, but get some good notes on my villain.

[/ QUOTE ]
Paying to see people's cards at big-site online poker is a fish play. Most multitabling players don't even see most of the showdowns at their tables. All of that information out there for free and you don't even have time to process most of it.

But suddenly it's worth spending money to see this one hand just because you're involved? I can't believe that. How many people play 3/6 6-max at Party? On average you'll only play a few orbits with this unknown player and then there is a very good chance you will never see him again. The EV benefit of seeing this one hand is very small.

How come no one ever mentions the value of hiding their own hand? You're showing not one player but the entire table that you made an isolation raise with JTs.

As for the actual hand, notice that the runner-runner flush draw is from the *bottom* flop card. It is very likely that Villain flopped top or middle pair with two hearts and backed into the lucky flush. Or maybe he had OESD + backdoor flush draw.

I doubt that 12-1 is adeqaute odds to call. I fold.

[Mig]

It might be a fold at 3/6 but there is no way I fold that at 10/20. There is a lot of player who will do this kind of move with such a scary card hitting the river. They will do it b/c they know their hand has showdown value (like second pair top kicker) added with the semi-bluff raise, they are making instant profit vs the weak players. Any 3$6 might be an other story but at 10/20 you will be better than 1/12...

[NLfool]

everyone here preaches value bet this value bet that be over agg. etc. Well you do have to give your opponents credit for hands sometimes and in this situation you have 2 players that called on the turn. Against one yeah it's a probable value bet but against 2 players on this board? I'd say the UTG offers some protection against a weird ass bluff but a river check isn't as bad as many will make it out to be (unless he is a total donk)

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
It might be a fold at 3/6 but there is no way I fold that at 10/20. There is a lot of player who will do this kind of move with such a scary card hitting the river. They will do it b/c they know their hand has showdown value (like second pair top kicker) added with the semi-bluff raise, they are making instant profit vs the weak players. Any 3$6 might be an other story but at 10/20 you will be better than 1/12...

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree but 10/20 might as well be on a different planet.

A real problem with this hand is that the jack kicker has virtually no value on this board. The case for calling with AT would be considerably better.

[helpmeout]

Check the river you have 2 callers and you might be outkicked.

I'd probably valuebet AT here but thats a pretty scary board and really what do you expect them to call with? Surely they dont think you are going to bet anything worse than a good T.