Ignoring the show of strength.

[Huh]

Good $3-$6 game online.

3 limp, 1 fold, 1 raise, I call, 2 more call, as does all the original actors and the blind.

I have A /forums/images/icons/club.gif Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

Flop is Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif
Checked to the raiser(R), who bets out, I raise, get one additional caller(AC), and the raiser calls.

Turn 7 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif
checked to me, I bet, and AC check-raises, OR calls.

River 9 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

AC bets out and I call.

I am trying to learn to muck top-pair-top-kicker when check-raised on the turn when the situation warrants it, but I don't think this was one. Just wanted everyones opinion.

By the time I was checkraised there was more than 10 big bets in the pot, but I was pretty sure I was going to have to pay two bets to get to the end.

Comments appreciated, results to follow.

Thanks,
-Huh /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

[Ed Miller]

I would muck preflop. This raise after a gaggle of limpers is usually a significant show of strength... you don't want to be playing AQo here.

What I don't like is that the preflop raiser cold-calls two on the turn. Unless he is a very poor player, he has at least AQ, and likely KK or AA. I would muck without second thought to the checkraise after the cold-call... you are likely running in third place, and may well be drawing dead to a set.

[ZManODS]

"I would muck preflop. This raise after a gaggle of limpers is usually a significant show of strength... you don't want to be playing AQo here."

Beautifully said. Had the situation been different like the raiser being the first one in, then your hand can be playable and maybe even 3-bettable <--- is that a word?
Also if your hand was AQs that would also be playable.

Ok, lets forget about your pre-flop cold call and talk about the flop play. After your raise and he calls cold you have to assume you are up against at least AQ, most likely an overpair. Unless you hit a really appetizing turn card you have to check-fold the turn.

Im guessing you and the OR had AQ and the AC had either a set or an overpair.

[techsan]

Preflop: Easy fold. With that many early limpers and a preflop raise ahead of you, I'd fold every time. Plus you still have several players to act behind you and it might reraised and you'll be stuck in between. There are already 4 players in (not including the blinds) by the time the actions gets to you. AQo is not good in multiway pots.

Flop: I think you did ok. You immediately have to question the additional callers motives here. Is he on the flush draw? Is he slowplaying a set? Also, what about the preflop raiser? He didn't reraise you on the flop so I don't think he would have an overpair here-not with the two flush showing. He'd want to pump that flop and protect his hand. I put him on AK and he is trying to peel off a card and pick up an Ace, King, or maybe even a backdoor spade.

Turn: The additional caller all of a sudden comes to life with a checkraise when a blank hits. I think he slowplayed a set. I think this is a time for you to save some BB and fold to his checkraise. You showed aggression on the flop and he hung in there. the only real draw is the flush draw which missed on the turn so I don't think he was drawing to anything.

Bottom line:

Preflop: Easy fold.

Flop: Played ok.

Turn: Fold.

[Schmed]

Why would you fold pre-flop??

I understand that it's touchy here but couldn't the person be just as likely raising preflop with a jj or 10 10, AK, as he is with a pair of k's or q's.

How do the limpers along with one preflop raiser tell you that you are probably beaten with a hand like AQo? You may be saying that you don't want to play this hand with any action from certain positions. I'm curious what your thinking is here. Personally I would have probably played it similar to what he did but I would have folded on the check raise.

[J.R.]

I understand that it's touchy here but couldn't the person be just as likely raising preflop with a jj or 10 10, AK

The fact that AK is the most common raising hand is what makes folding AQo here crystal clear. You should be folding AQo to legitimate raises.

[Ed Miller]

Hands you do not want to be playing AQo against: AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ

Hands you don't mind playing AQ against: anything else

The problem is... the hands that you don't want to be playing against are also the hands that you are most likely to be against when a standard player raises several limpers. Just fold this one and wait for the next hand. AQo isn't at its best in a raised multiway pot anyway... /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Huh]

Wow, a plethora of good advice. Thanks all.
The AC had pocket deuces for the flopped set…

Which brings up another question I have. Shouldn’t the set be played a bit faster considering this many people and a two flush on the board? I guess it makes sense to wait to the turn and see what happens since a flush draw isn’t likely to go anywhere.

BTW, I had seen the raiser raise pocket eights earlier, as well as open raise A8s UTG. I am pretty sure I was ahead of him (or her) the whole time, not that this makes my pre-flop call any better, just thought I would mention it. I have a feeling that if I can learn to make this type of lay-down my results will dramatically improve.

Thanks again,
-Huh /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

[Schmed]

Really what I was curious about was what affect do the limpers have on your decision to fold? Or was it just the fact that there is a raiser here. Wouldn't position also play a role here? Wouldn't you play that hand from the button but be more likely to throw it away utg?? Would you play it from the button even if it were raised?

Another question I have, and I am probably just not understanding something fundementally, but as off suited hands how much more powerful is AK to AQ?? If the same flop happens my thinking is I'd rather have the AQ. If I had the AK I would certainly have raised preflop and you would have folded with the AQo?? I know...a K is higher than a Q therefore there is more value. I realize that the only card that helps you when those two hands play against each other is the Q, (or 8,9,10,j...... /forums/images/icons/grin.gif ). I have a hard time throwing this hand away preflop. (for the record I have learned the hard and expensive way how to play AJo....I have almost come to hating that hand....almost rather have jq...) Flop comes and there is a K I'm gone. If it comes and there is an A and nobody raised preflop I probably lose to the ball-less guy who never raises AK preflop...(The more I have been playing the more I see this....I also hear people talk about how bad of a hand AK is......give it to me everytime I raise it every time and will take it to 3 every time....)...

Another thing that always throws me is the phrase, "legitimate raise", What does that mean?? Is it a raise by a good player and not a maniac?? Or is it one by a raiser who has a family tree with branches???? /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Thanks both of you for the responses.....

[cferejohn]

"Really what I was curious about was what affect do the limpers have on your decision to fold?"

The effect is that a raise after so many limpers usually means a very good hand, since the raiser can be sure that all the limpers will call him. If there had been no limpers, than the raise could have been made with much weaker hands since a) he has a chance to steal the blinds and b) there are fewer hands behind the raiser that might be stronger than his.

"Another question I have, and I am probably just not understanding something fundementally, but as off suited hands how much more powerful is AK to AQ??"

Much more powerful. Think of it like this:

What hands do you hate to take AK up against? AA, KK. That's it. That's 6 hands (since there are 3 ways to make each given 3 aces and 3 kings left in the deck (remember, you already have one of each)). It's a small underdog to a smaller pocket pair, but its a huge favorite over AQ, AJ, AT, Ax, KQ, KJ, KT, Kx, all of which are hands that people will play pre-flop.

Now consider AQ. It hates playing against AA, KK, QQ, and (most significantly) AK. Note that there are 12 ways to make AK with 4 Ks and the 3 remaining aces. So that equals 3(AA) + 6(KK) + 3(QQ) + 12(AK) = 24 hands you really don't want to be up against. 4 times as many.

Consider now what hands people would raise several limpers with. AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQs, *maybe* JJ, and *even more maybe* TT. That's all hands you are either a huge underdog or a slight underdog to.

Ergo, fold.

[bernie]

like preflop standards, making laydowns on the turn here, you need to know the opponents c/r standards. some will only do it with a set or better. some will do it with a draw. if in doubt, call for the info and possible drag of the pot..

"Shouldn’t the set be played a bit faster considering this many people and a two flush on the board?"

sets are very dynamic and can be played many different ways. if you notice, if anyone had a flush draw, theyd have stayed (maybe they did) to the river. and he charged them 2 big bets on the turn to see it.

that said, i wouldve probably raised my set on the flop. if anything, to build for a redraw should i need it /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

b

[bernie]

"This raise after a gaggle of limpers is usually a significant show of strength"

this raise can be a wide range of hands. i dont see it as 'that' signifigant a show of strength. player depending, of course. but i can think of much lesser hands id raise with here.

that said, if the table was going to have alot of callers, even if i 3 bet, id fold. but if i thought i could cut the field, id 3 bet. i dont like cold calling here. but the range of hands for the raise still depends on the raiser.

b