2nd-nut Flush Busted on the River

[RockLobster]

Hi All--

I mentioned in an earlier post that I suffered through a losing session, with my losses accounted for by just 2 hands. Here's one of them.

Online 1-2

I'm in the CO with Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif J /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif. 4 limpers to me, I call. Button folds, SB raises, BB and everyone else calls. Is this a clear raise? If so, why? 6 to the flop:

[7 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif T /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif]
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 raises, 1 person folds, everyone else calls. I didn't 3-bet since (a) I was drawing to the 3rd nut flush, and (b) I don't think I would have knocked anyone out. I did have the 4 kings as solid outs, I'm now thinking I should have raised. 5 to the turn:

[7 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif T /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif] K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

Great card, the only hand that beats me is if someone has Ax of diamonds. SB bets, BB folds, 2 callers to me, I raise, everyone calls. 4 to the river:

[7 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif T /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif] 2 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

Not good. Checked to the player to my right (who bets), me and 1 other caller. The person to my right turns over A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif for the rivered nut flush, winning a $64.50 pot (remember, this is 1-2). Ouch.

Should I have played this differently? Did I wait too long to get aggressive? Thoughts on all streets are GREATLY appreciated.

[Ed Miller]

I usually raise preflop in this situation. You have a strong hand with high card value. Furthermore, you can "buy the button" with a raise (for what that's worth). In general, I raise two suited cards T or higher from LP with a gaggle of limpers in front. Having said that, just calling is no blunder.

You need to be 3-betting this flop for value. You have a 12 out hand meaning you will make it almost 50% of the time by the river. You do not want to knock anyone out... you want them all to come in and someone to cap it behind you. Your equity in their bets is nearly 50%. Furthermore, if you 3-bet, you might have the option to decide whether to take a free card on the turn or not (which you may well not want to do even given the opportunity). Failing to 3-bet is a blunder.

Rest of the hand: Tough break.

[Bob T.]

Preflop, I would raise preflop some of the time, you might get a free card, you might disguise your hand, and you might win the button, all of those things have some hard to quantify value.

On the flop, you have a number of potential outs, you are going to see the river anyway, so raising has a lot of value. You are getting value if your flush draw is good, and if you may very well have a choice of taking a free card or not on the turn.

Turn and river, only one thing to do I think, just what you did.

You were never going to win this hand, your opponent had top pair, top kicker on the flop, Top two with the nut flush redraw on the turn, and then on the river, he finally makes the winning hand. Poker happens. I think that you could very well have lost more on this hand if your opponent played more aggressively, because I don't see you getting away from this hand at anypoint after the flop.

[RockLobster]

Thanks MajorKong & Bob. I agree that not raising the flop is a mistake (for the reasons given). I hope my post didn't come of as whiny or anything, I have no problem losing pots like this. I was just looking for advice on how to improve my play... so thanks again!

[sucka]

yeah, there's not much worse than having a straight AND a flush and still losing the pot...

I agree with everyone on raising PF - I'm going to raise here 90% against 4+ limpers - not only for value but to camoflauge my hand a little.

I'm going to raise the flop as well. You aren't really semi-bluffing here, so don't worry about knocking anyone out. You've got several strong draws so eek a few more bets out of them while you are still the favorite.

[RockLobster]

Hey Sucka (I love writing that... I feel like B.A. Baracus, aka Clubber Lang /forums/images/icons/wink.gif)--

I agree with everyone on raising PF - I'm going to raise here 90% against 4+ limpers - not only for value but to camoflauge my hand a little.

I also agree, makes sense to me.

I'm going to raise the flop as well. You aren't really semi-bluffing here, so don't worry about knocking anyone out. You've got several strong draws so eek a few more bets out of them while you are still the favorite.

Agreed here also. This bugs me a bit because I feel that I should have known to raise here. Taking the time to write up the hand, post it, and go through the replies should help get this through my thick skull /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif.

Thanks again...

[JTG51]

Limping preflop is fine. Raising seems to be a popular 2+2 play, but I don't think anyone would say you are making much of a mistake by limping. If you aren't comfortable with a raise there then don't spend another second worrying about it.

As majorkong pointed out, you should probably 3-bet the flop. I don't have anything to add to his reasoning.

[Bob T.]

As I was thinking about your post tonight at work, I realized something, that I think will help your game alot.

When you are done playing a hand like this, think about how you would have played your opponents hand. In this case, I think you would have seen how doomed your hand was, and even though your play was reasonable, you would also see how your opponents play was also reasonable.

Some of the time, hopefully a lot of the time, you can see that your opponents made mistakes, and occasionally significant mistakes on the way to the river. Your next task, is to figure out a strategy to exploit those mistakes, and then when you play against this player in the future, go ahead and use your strategy against them.

So, think about how and why your opponent played their hand from their point of view, and then try and figure out how to take advantage of their tendencies.

[Bob T.]

I agree with JTG that limping preflop is fine. I think that I said that I would raise preflop some of the time, I don't think that this hand merits a raise as much as 80% of the time, unles almost a high percentage of hands are settled before the showdown.

[RockLobster]

[ZManODS]

"In general, I raise two suited cards T or higher from LP with a gaggle of limpers in front. "

Can you elaborate on this.. Do you do this because it plays well multi-way or like some other posters said, to disguise your hand? What happens if you you miss the flop completely, bail? How bout when you have 2 overcards and a backdoor-flush? I have trouble playing hands like these.

[davidross]

I’ll throw my 2 cents in here. I don’t think you should raise this hand in a paradise 1 / 2 game pre-flop. I think it’s a variance play that is unnecessary at those limits. If you had a suited A I say go ahead and make the play, but I’m limping with that hand 95% of the time. In a tougher game by all means use the pre-flop raise, but I think with 4 limpers ahead of you and 3 to act after you this hand is going to a showdown and I’d want a better chance at the nuts to raise it.

As everyone else has said, 3-bet that flop (the only time not to is if you were on the immediate left of the raiser where your 3-bet might knock out too many players. I’d rather go 5 way for 2 bets here than 2 way for 3 bets).

It’s important to realize that over the long haul you will win hands like that almost half the time. You invested $10 in this hand and the pot was $64. Your job when you get a flop like that is to make the pot as big as you can. Sometimes that means raising, sometimes it means smooth calling. The math will take care of itself in the long run.

[Ed Miller]

I raise because I think it is probably +EV (because my hand is more likely to win the hand than my opponents'), for deception, to use my position to get cheap draws after the flop, to tie people to the pot if I flop a good draw, etc.

It is not correct to raise a hand simply "because it plays well multiway." That is, 76s plays well multiway (or at least much better multiway than it does headsup), but I certainly wouldn't raise with that hand routinely because it does not win its fair share of pots. But QJs is a much better hand than 76s.

If you miss the flop, yes you bail. You can't proceed profitably against five opponents if you airball the flop. If you flop 2 overcards and a backdoor flush, then you can probably take one off if you are sure to be able to do so for only one bet. But as usual, you have to play poker and make good decisions for specific situations.