QQ 3rd nut flush

[Inthacup]

Online 2 4 game, moderately loose.

I'm UTG+1 with Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif . I raise, MP cold calls as do the blinds.

Flop comes: 10 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

Blinds check, I bet, MP calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: 8 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

SB bets out. What do you do?

[Schmed]

In my opinion it all depends on who you are matched up against. If it's the guy that only bets with the nuts then I would fold. If it's the guy that you know likes to make a play every now and then I call the river. You're probably beat but not certainly. That A and K may just be in the muck and our hero is betting the J

[sucka]

Call.

[marbles]

Perfect example for "why it's important to study your opponents." Depending on the opponent, an extremely strong case could be made for raising, calling, or folding.

If I knew absolutely nothing about these two opponents (i.e. just sat down), I'd raise as my last money in the pot.

[Ed Miller]

I would raise as the last money I put in the pot. You want to give the K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif a chance to fold.

[Ulysses]

Call.

[cferejohn]

I don't understand this. The number of times you will get K/forums/images/icons/spade.gif to fold like this (if the pot is of any size at all, they would be horribly wrong to do so) has got to be much smaller than the number of times you will be giving an extra bet to A/forums/images/icons/spade.gif or K/forums/images/icons/spade.gif. Add to that the fact you are opening yourself up to a bluff re-raise (or even an overplayed J/forums/images/icons/spade.gif or 10/forums/images/icons/spade.gif) that will cost you the pot when you have a winner (since you are presumably intending to fold to that). Unless you have a very specific read on a very tight opponent who will not call with *anything* other than the nuts *and* would not attempt to bluff-raise, call.

[Ulysses]

At first glance, I thought this was silly, since SB is never going to fold K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif for one bet. But I guess MP might have the King. And it's definitely a tough decision for him to call 2 cold on the turn. And if you just call, you'll call a bet on the river as well, putting in the same two bets. And if you're 3-bet by either player, it's an easy laydown against all but the most tricky, aggressive players. Yep, I think I like your play.

[Ed Miller]

Yes.. SB won't fold the K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif, but MP very well might... whereas he will definitely overcall if you just call. Since you raised preflop, people are going to put you on the A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif when you raise, so it's unlikely that someone is going to get fresh with you without the nuts. Furthermore, if MP does call two and then bets the river when you check, he's got you beaten.

[Ed Miller]

You are the MP with the K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif. There is a bet and a raise to you on the turn... and the turn raiser was also the preflop raiser. How do you like your hand? You don't... you might decide to suck it up and call down, but I think that is actually probably a mistake against many players.

As you put it... if the pot is "of any size at all" then the extra bet you put in on the turn will be well worth it when you steal occasionally from MP.

[Homer]

"SB won't fold the K , but MP very well might"

In my online 2/4 experience this is not true.

"Furthermore, if MP does call two and then bets the river when you check, he's got you beaten."

In my online 2/4 experience this is not true.

"Since you raised preflop, people are going to put you on the A when you raise, so it's unlikely that someone is going to get fresh with you without the nuts."

This is true with most players, but some have the short-term memory of a goldfish, so they won't remember who raised preflop.

-- Homer

[Ed Miller]

You know... you are probably right. I wonder why that is. I very rarely play online, but when I have played online, I've noticed that people play much more aggressively on the big bet streets than they do in my B&M games. For instance, in 8 hours of 4-8, 10-20, and 15-30 today, I did not see one single hand get 4-bet on either the turn or the river all night. There were fewer than 5 3-bets on the big bet streets as well (in fact, one hand where both players had the nuts on the river only went 3 bets).

If I were to raise the turn in that situation in my B&M game, no one, even one of the aggressive players, is going to screw with me without the nuts.

[Inthacup]

I folded. MP folded, and SB took the pot without showing.

I didn't like the fact that there was a player left to act behind me. If it were heads up, or I was last to act out of the 3 I would felt much better about the situation. However, I think there are some very interesting points that were made in this thread about moving the K off of his hand.

[davidross]

Unless I have some reason to suspect he’s making a play, I fold. There are however a lot of players I will call down if I have any notes of them making plays in the past.

[davidross]

You make a very interesting point that I don’t consider very often. I play exclusively online and wonder why the advice seems to go contrary to what I experience online. I guess the answer is we online players should be using the internet forum….but of course that’s not going to happen unless I find Kennedy’s assassin.

I thought about raising and then decided I’d rather let the SB bluff his Ts and the MP call with the J on two more streets than drive them out with a raise. Still think I would have folded.