KJs vs. a 2+2er (preflop question, oh my!)

[tiltaholic]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>,

good or bad?

Reads: MP2 is an aggressive 2+2er. He is first-in from MP2. I suspect he might be slightly overaggressive in general. I also felt like messing with him a little bit because it's fun to play thinking players. MP2 knows I could be messing with him and also thinks I'm a solid 2+2er in general (now that last part is a bad read).


Other players yet to act are tight/irrelevant EXCEPT for SB who is incapable of finding the fold button preflop (and in fact loves to raise too) and is extremely predictable postflop when he displays aggression, but is otherwise extremely passive.

So, who likes my pseudo-isolation raise to get 3-way in big pot with KJs against a TAG and a calling station?

If you think KJs is not strong enough, where is the threshold for this situation? It is clearly not isolating to get HU with a bad player, and is not a true multiway pot but does contain "padding" from a known bad entity who is OOP for the whole hand.

[Entity]

I would be more likely to fold here than to 3-bet. I might 3-bet KQs if he opened from MP3, but MP2 is still fairly early, and most 2+2ers call down more than they should at these limits so I don't think your FE is where you really want it.

Rob

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
and is not a true multiway pot but does contain "padding" from a known bad entity who is OOP for the whole hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate having that Entity guy at my table. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and is not a true multiway pot but does contain "padding" from a known bad entity who is OOP for the whole hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate having that Entity guy at my table. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

no...the SB was a known entity. it wasn't entity the 2+2er.

[crownjules]

It's fairly risky, assuming MP2 raises with a standard range of hands preflop and is only overaggressive postflop. At best, you're in a near coinflip type situation against a hand like 99 or TT. If you spike a pair, you may be paying a lot to find out that you were dominated by a hand like AJ or KQ.

KJ is just too iffy for me. The fact that it's suited helps, but that's really only in a multiway pot, which you won't have here. You're playing solely on high card strength, and you may be outclassed in that regard.

I'd consider 3-betting more with KQs.

[DeathDonkey]

Terrible, your isolating yourself with a dominated hand against a good player. I can't think of a quicker recipe for disaster.

KQ and AJ are both closer to the borderline, with AQ clearly being on the 3 bet side in my mind.

-DeathDonkey

[Marquis]

Is this about the right range? How much does it even matter what your equity is?

999,985,536 games 3.625 secs 275,858,078 games/sec


equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 59.5843 % 56.18% 03.40% { 66+, A7s+, K9s+, QJs, ATo+, KJo+ }
Hand 2: 40.4157 % 37.01% 03.40% { KJs }

The range looks about right, i would take out K9, and put the A7s up 1, to A8s, but its not a big difference im sure

[tiltaholic]

ok guys thanks. i guess the answer is i should just stove the combos myself /images/graemlins/smile.gif point taken.

but i guess the other part of my question is that, since i like to think i can drop a marginal hand postflop, if i do hit the flop the upside is great due to the presence of the third caller.

Marquis-

this is what i was thinking:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 23.9102 % 23.21% 00.70% { random }
Hand 2: 42.6186 % 40.52% 02.09% { 66+, A8s+, KTs+, QTs+, A9o+, KJo+ }
Hand 3: 33.4712 % 31.44% 02.03% { KJs }

and for KQs

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 23.6444 % 22.99% 00.66% { random }
Hand 2: 40.2286 % 38.14% 02.09% { 66+, A8s+, KTs+, QTs+, A9o+, KJo+ }
Hand 3: 36.1271 % 34.11% 02.01% { KQs }

[Marquis]

I missed the part about the guaranteed call by the SB.

So with tilt's KJs numbers, his equity is greater than 1/3 in a 3-way pot, plus he has position and plays postflop like a champion. Is 3-betting still wrong? I'm having trouble translating the Stove numbers into an action.

[numeri]

Just a question: You mention that SB cannot find the fold button preflop. Will he easily fold post-flop to all your aggression if he holds a marginal hand? I ask because you may want to consider that you won't gain extra bets from SB if you do hit. (If he won't call down.)

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
So with tilt's KJs numbers, his equity is greater than 1/3 in a 3-way pot, plus he has position and plays postflop like a champion. Is 3-betting still wrong? I'm having trouble translating the Stove numbers into an action.

[/ QUOTE ]
By less than 0.2%. Seems like a pretty slim edge to be pushing.

[Thebram]

Why would you play back at a perceived good player with an easily dominated hand?

If you're feeling frisky(read:drunk) and want to 'mess with him', I'd probably do it with something like 89d. At least then you're likely to have some live cards.

Wait for better spots.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
Just a question: You mention that SB cannot find the fold button preflop. Will he easily fold post-flop to all your aggression if he holds a marginal hand? I ask because you may want to consider that you won't gain extra bets from SB if you do hit. (If he won't call down.)

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i think this is important as well. postflop he's a true calling station but he does fold postflop too. so i can't gaurantee unlimited bets on all streets.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
I missed the part about the guaranteed call by the SB.

So with tilt's KJs numbers, his equity is greater than 1/3 in a 3-way pot, plus he has position and plays postflop like a champion. Is 3-betting still wrong? I'm having trouble translating the Stove numbers into an action.

[/ QUOTE ]

funny one.

[Saint_D]

[ QUOTE ]
Reads: MP2 is an aggressive 2+2er. He is first-in from MP2. I suspect he might be slightly overaggressive in general. I also felt like messing with him a little bit because it's fun to play thinking players. MP2 knows I could be messing with him and also thinks I'm a solid 2+2er in general (now that last part is a bad read).

[/ QUOTE ]

How good is he/she at postflop play? You have postition, and all else being equal this seems, at worst, EV nuetral.

It wasn't me you were playing, but your description sounds like me. If it was ME you could add "gets lost on the turn against thinking players". So if you are playing someone at my level of post flop play, you can probably take advantage of the over agression and outplay them.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be raising from this position with less than AQs or TT.

I like the suggestion to use smaller suited connectors as your "mess with someone" hands. Against someone with my typical raising standards from MP2 poker stove says that 87s is better than 89s-KJs.

-D

P.S. how did the rest of the hand go?