never go back again

[dopp16]

K, Wednesday night down at the taj, hangin out with my friend and my girlfriend. We played for 5 or 6 hours then we decided to hit the showboat (because they always send us free rooms) At this point we were having fun, played a little 1/2 no limit but the sat at a 1/5 stud table because my girlfriend likes to play.

Heres what happens, the three of us are sitting with a bunch of old timers, having a good time but also playing cards. I am probably winning about half of the hands because they are all so tight i am just raising max early and stealing the pot. Now my girlfriend isnt stupid so if she had a hand and I had raised to 5, she would raise me back the maximum and usually win the hand.

New person a seats 2 and 3, an old grumpy lady and a guy who claimed he was a dealer in AC, althogh i have never seen him (maybe a resorts dealer) who btw had headphones and sunglasses at a 1/5 stud table. They keep making comments every time one of us wins a hand, and they would call us down to fold on the river.

My GF and old bitch in a pot, go three max on 5th and 6th street, then the old lady folds on the river. She then demands to see my gf cards thinking that we were trying to squeeze. The dealer allowed it without calling the floor, and that is when I lost it. The 2/seat guy called the floor and said we were trying to squeeze. (the floor guy is the old taj guy with the grey hair and mustache) The Floor came up to me and said that we were playing kind of suspicious.

I lost it, and rightfully so I might add. I then say, if we were going to write a squeeze play, it certainly wouldnt be at a 1/5 stud table, and he says,"we both know you can make money squuezing at that table" The I said, this is my girlfriends 8th time playing poker in a casino and called the guy in the 2-seat a "dooshbag", my only mistake i might add, and we were escorted out of the shoqboat.

Any thoughts guys, i am furious

[Jeffage]

Wow, in a 1-5 game? LOL. That place sounds like a shitbox...I won't be going there anytime soon.

Jeff

[JihadOnTheRiver]

Thoughts...you spelled 'dooshbag' wrong

Sincerely,
-Douche Bag

[ChicagoTroy]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but how can you be in a squeeze play if only one of you were in the hand?

[dopp16]

That is a good question, I was in the hand til sixth street so the lady thought that we were trying to push her out

[autobet]

They were raising each other with the old lady trapped in the middle.

[ChicagoTroy]

[ QUOTE ]
My GF and old bitch in a pot, go three max on 5th and 6th street, then the old lady folds on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Got it now, there wasn't any indication he was in that pot in the OP.

[ChicagoTroy]

The old lady was an idiot, the other player was a nit trying ot get you to slow down, and the floor & dealer were incompetent.

I'd write a letter, personally.

[dopp16]

i wrote a really long and detailed letter to showboat, harrahs, and harrahs las vegas....as well as there corporate offices

[The Ocho]

If this is the worst thing that ever happens to you in a card room, consider yourself lucky. Don't sweat it.

[dopp16]

we are regulars in that area. We know all of the dealers, and we tip really well. We felt that because we were winning, the old bag and the know-it-all had the power to have us removed from the room. And you would think the floor man, who worked at the taj for years, would give us the benefit of the doubt because he knows we are there a lot

[sekrah]

I thought the Showboat was a dump.. I'd never go back anyway.

Out of all the AC casinos I played it, I enjoyed it the least. Dealers suck, Felt sucks, Chips suck, Floor sucks.. This was my experience when I was there.

[ChrisConstantine]

"I am probably winning about half of the hands because they are all so tight i am just raising max early and stealing the pot. Now my girlfriend isnt stupid so if she had a hand and I had raised to 5, she would raise me back the maximum and usually win the hand."

This is nearly the definition of implicit collusion which, of course, is not collusion.

However, as a winning poker player, you need to recognize situations like this for what they are and you need to get along with the players donating to your profit.

The 1/5 spread stud game is recognized nationally as a "limper's" game where the players are eager to see cards cheap and play more hands and draws. They often get riled when there is correct aggressive play as it spoils their fun, but they will tolerate a fair amount of raising. It's a fine line and if one player keeps raising, most of those players are capable of wising up and adjusting to that player. In this case they got really upset because your girlfriend was the first to adjust and started to reraise you which stole their thunder and certainly did feel like some kind of collusion.

BTW, Phil Ivey started his career in these games in AC and I know these players pushed him "out and up" as soon as possible because his eventual aggressiveness started to ruin their social game.

I played one hour at the Showboat/House of Blues poker room when they first opened last month and saw more floor and dealer mistakes there in one hour than I have all year. It was literally a floor show and finally I had to start to gently correct both dealers and floor because it was, well, embarrassing. As they improve, the room has potential if they can get some of the middle limit games from the Taj. Otherwise it's just another new poker room with the lowest limits possible.

[sfer]

If you have any idea how miserable the typical 1-5 Stud player is this shouldn't surprise you. FWIW, bdk3clash and I jammed a terrible 3rd player on 6th in 1-5 Stud at the Borgata on Christmas. He had an obvious flush draw who said, "You guys can't get me out!" and he wanted to see our cards too. He was drawing dead.

[MicroBob]

I think 'losing it' and calling someone a 'douchebag' was pretty ridiculous on your part.

Your play probably did look suspicious.
Yes...the old nits are sometimes REALLY retarded...but what you are describing does sound quite 'sueeze-playish'.
That's why the floor commented that the play sounded potnetially suspicious as well.


I played a game where two friends were sitting next to each other and obviously were NOT colluding.
The 50-ish old lady next to me who didn't get along with ANYBODY thought they were trying to squeeze her. She called them down and said 'I'm calling...but I want to see your hands'.

she was a super-grumpy-beeatch.
Anyway, the two guys (both of whom were decent players) showed their cards and they both had something reasonable and just played aggressively as I recall.

They were both reasonably ticked...but tried to stay polite as they explained that they made no secret out of the fact that they knew each other.

Anyway...very next hand one of the guys raises pre-flop...and the other guy guy has something worth re-raising.
So as to DIVERT the suspicion...HE HIMSELF called the floor over.
He just asked the floor, 'I want you to watch this hand'.
Floor-guy was bit confused. Guy explained that those two made no secret of knowing each other and that there was some suspicions earlier.
First guy had raised with 99 and the next guy had AK or something.
They were both raising and re-raising hands in the very least.
Floor watched the hand and said 'that's great. I understand. Thanks for calling me over.'



I just think that the situation that you had really DID seem like something that would OBVIOUSLY cause suspicion and I'm not sure how you couldn't see that typical nitty players who don't like raising might actually begin to suspect that.
It shouldn't have been that surprising if you were able to see the game from their perspective.

JMHO.

[dopp16]

well i did say that calling him a douchbad was definitely a mistake but that was after they had hassled us for a half an hour. And if you think that i am trying to squuze someone with 3 to the straight flush at the door, which was the hand in question, then call the floor and ask to see my cards, don't say sarcastic things and certainly don't whisper things back and forth, they didn't do it the right way either and if you are going to accuse someone then call the floor and I'd show them my hand

[mshalen]

And that is why my wife plays the slots or goes shopping or swimming or anything else but play cards when I am playing poker. Why go looking for trouble? You have to be able to look at things from the other players viewpoint and think about how it LOOKS TO THEM not what your intentions are.

[poker327]

I played 1/2 NL last Sat. night there, and both the floor and the dealers were terrible. I can't see any high limit games going off there until they get their act together.

If this is the place where they are going to hold the WSOP Circut event, the players will rip apart the dealers.

[dopp16]

I just got a reply from the poker manager who told me to have patience because all of the dealers and floorpersons are new. But the guy who kicked us out was floor at the taj for years, go figure.....

[poker327]

One of the floorman I was told used to be a Trop dealer, so at least he should know what is going on. But I saw things such as letting players back into games without posting blinds, having the button in front of an invisible player. They hired dealers who are not poker players, and to get the nuisances of the game, you have to be one.

One problem is the floor people don't have headsets/walkie talkies to communicate with each other, so just seating a player is sometimes an ordeal.

[dopp16]

agreed

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
well i did say that calling him a douchbad was definitely a mistake but that was after they had hassled us for a half an hour. And if you think that i am trying to squuze someone with 3 to the straight flush at the door, which was the hand in question, then call the floor and ask to see my cards, don't say sarcastic things and certainly don't whisper things back and forth, they didn't do it the right way either and if you are going to accuse someone then call the floor and I'd show them my hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Lighten up, Frances.

[youtalkfunny]

You really can't see why they would be suspicious?

I realize that YOU know you're on the level. But you can't see why they might question it?

Also, you're talking about old stud players. EVERYTHING pisses them off. They get pissed at fish who donate $100's to their game. "I'm glad HE left! He didn't know what he was doing!"

Old stud players don't like aggressive players.
Old stud players don't like loose players.
Old stud players don't like tight players.
Old stud players don't like winning players.
Old stud players don't like losing players.
Old stud players don't like young players.
Old stud players don't like ANYBODY.

[RydenStoompala]

Welcome to the death of "games other than Hold'em"

So if you're a young, internet spawned player with a good bankroll you'd want to sit in a B+M with a gaggle of cranky old fartbags and suffer through the incessant nattering? This would not be an excellent experience? I cannot imagine why.

Card room management should, if they really do want a poker room to be a good part of their casinos, encourage more than one game of poker. I would cut off my right arm (or at least hack at it with a dull spoon) if a good room would give us a mid-limit and upper middle limit HORSE table or two. Keeping the old 1-5 stud game alive by propping ill-tempered elderly windbags in the seats does not seem to make good business sense in this period of explosive public interest in the game.

I guess the margins are just too low for anyone to give a crap. Unless you can rake in slot-machine revenues from every square foot, why even open the doors? Corporate casino management needs a serious boot in the balls. (all of you well-run rooms are, of course, excused from this comment...especially you guys in Vegas)

Love,

Ryden

[dopp16]

hahahahahaha, well done

[IgorSmiles]

Keep in mind, these old fossils play every single day. They have no job, they have no life, they are fixtures at the low limit stud game. The floor has to make some effort to keep them happy if for no other reason than to keep the daily whining to minimum.

And you clearly over reacted. You state your case calmly and that's that. You huffed and puffed and acted just as cranky as the old farts. They're a hundred freakin years old, what's your excuse?

[dopp16]

my excuse is that to be accused of cheating is a very serious charge. How would Igor feel if you were winning a bunch of pots and the fartbags all of the sudden accused you of cheating and the floor backed them up....Probably not too good. All I wanted was to be treated fairly, collusion in poker is a very severe accusation

[IgorSmiles]

well, i wasnt there, but it sounds like you were kicked out for making a scene, not for cheating. the floor didnt back them up so much as point out why your play was suspicious.

As for how I would feel? Igor keeps cool at the card table...that is why Igor is one bad mutha

[KenProspero]

[ QUOTE ]
I just got a reply from the poker manager who told me to have patience because all of the dealers and floorpersons are new.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what did he offer you to make up for the terrible calls, embarrassment, etc.

I'd think one of their better suites for you and the GF for a couple of days would be nice -- but that's gotta be wishful thinking.

[jacki]

[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts...you spelled 'dooshbag' wrong

Sincerely,
-Douche Bag

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what though, it looks more vulgar written as dooshbag.

The silent 'e' lends 'douche bag' a dignified air.

[jacki]

[ QUOTE ]

Old stud players don't like aggressive players.
Old stud players don't like loose players.
Old stud players don't like tight players.
Old stud players don't like winning players.
Old stud players don't like losing players.
Old stud players don't like young players.
Old stud players don't like ANYBODY.

[/ QUOTE ]

"I don't want to make a broad generalization, but old people are no good at anything"
-- Moe Syzlak

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
Your play probably did look suspicious.
Yes...the old nits are sometimes REALLY retarded...but what you are describing does sound quite 'sueeze-playish'.
That's why the floor commented that the play sounded potnetially suspicious as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. The obvious fact that they are in fact boyfriend and girlfriend, so when their play is so markedly different from the rest of the table (albeit perfectly correct play), it's going to create suspicions that two strangers in a raising war wouldn't.

But far be it from me to chastise anyone else, as I have my own issues in handling situations like this. If this happened to me I'd be pretty unhappy. And now the floors at Foxwoods think I'm losing my temper just because experience shows that merely shouting "Lock it up!" in a reasonable shouting voice will get my seat given away, so instead I shout it at the top of my voice. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[eh923]

You need to get a grip. You made this comment in another post:
[ QUOTE ]
I lost it, and rightfully so I might add. I then say, if we were going to write a squeeze play, it certainly wouldnt be at a 1/5 stud table

[/ QUOTE ]
Yet you give a crap if one of the old crusts in that same game calls you a cheater? If the floor comes out and says "you were cheating" (which it doesn't sound like they did), that's a different issue.

The person I feel sorriest for is your GF. She was the one standing next to the @$$hole making a scene.

[dopp16]

i dont think that we will get any kind of retribution, but that isnt neccesarily what I was looking for. Simply an apology, which I got. I wrote the manager back with an apology of my own for being involved in a nuisance. I surely don't think I will get a suite, but I get 6 free rooms a month there anyway, who uses the rooms except for a quick powernap????

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

I lost it, and rightfully so I might add.

[/ QUOTE ]



I'm not sure there is EVER an instance where one is justified for 'losing it' over a stupid war of words in a Stud 1-5 game.

Maybe there is justification for 'losing it' when playing for 'serious' money in a 40/80 or 80/160 game or something....but you KNOW heading in there that you might lose....and you KNOW there is the possibility that something goofy will happen at the table and a ruling will be made not in your favor (because this happens in poker and you aren't completely ignorant).
So I'm not even sure there is much excuse for 'losing it' even at the higher stakes.


But being accused of 'cheating' in a 1/5 stud-game is DEFINITELY not a reason to 'lose it'.
It IS reason to perhaps say "Ummm....I wasn't cheating. My GF barely knows how to play. But thanks for the laugh."


or even, "Listen, it's not the end of the world....if you would be more comfortable with us playing at seperate tables or if you want the floor to stand-by for a bit and watch our hands more closely then I'm fine with that. We just happened to have a couple of good hands...that's all."


'Losing it' and saying 'this is a SERIOUS accusation...how can you possibly say such a thing!!' is not warranted here.
If you want to show your frustration towards the old retards and be snotty back then just a 'Whatever dude. We're not cheating.' would probably suffice.

[dopp16]

The reason I felt it may have been justified is because we were playing stud just like it SHOULD be played...raise the bring in or fold, and if the old fart wants to raise to three then cap it and sweep the money, it was as if I was beamed into some wierd dimension where poker was a different game and the best hand should always win. Find a 1/3 stud if 5 freakin dollars is too much for you. It was very profitable because nobody wanted to reraise me because htey wanted to see cheap cards. I might add that I was extremely pleasant and friendly to everyone at the table. The two know-it-alls were losing all there money and were convinced of some sort of conspiracy theory. Whats the difference if it is at a 1/5 or 50/100. Nothing...and BTW I did ask the floor to stand and watch the play, which he did, and he still told me it was suspicious. Yes I do think that it was justifiable to become upset, but I could have chosen my words a little better

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
because we were playing stud just like it SHOULD be played...............

it was as if I was beamed into some wierd dimension where poker was a different game and the best hand should always win.

[/ QUOTE ]


you will find players like this everywhere.
you play correctly (or close enough to it) and others think you are hyper-aggressive and cheating.
this probably won't be the last time this happens to you.


the floor watching and agreeing with the 'regulars' that the play does indeed look a little 'suspicious' to them also wasn't justification to 'lose it' imo.


I know I've come down kind of hard in this thread.
But regardless of what they were accusing you of I think that over-reacting and/or 'losing it' was uncalled for.



Again though...I wasn't there and it's difficult to piece together the exact order and all the details from a post.
Pretty much I just see.....
-- old retarded people are on your case
-- old retarded people get on your case even worse
-- floor gets called over and says they can see why the old retarded people are on your case
-- you get really upset at floor and old retarded people
-- old retarded people get even worse
-- you 'lose it' and call old retarded person a douche-bag

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I felt it may have been justified is because we were playing stud just like it SHOULD be played...raise the bring in or fold, and if the old fart wants to raise to three then cap it and sweep the money, it was as if I was beamed into some wierd dimension where poker was a different game and the best hand should always win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I right in inferring that you rarely play this low (stud or otherwise)? Most low-limit players, especially low-limit stud players, play this way. Essentially it's as though they're happy to deal out all the cards and push the pot to whoever holds the winning lottery ticket. They might bet with a lock hand, maybe with trips or better, but otherwise the mentality is that seeing cheap cards is a major coup and paying $5, even if you're charging someone else $5, is to be avoided.

Winning by aggression without upsetting the apple cart to the point where they don't want to play with you is a fascinating balancing act.

[ QUOTE ]
Whats the difference if it is at a 1/5 or 50/100. Nothing...

[/ QUOTE ]

In rules, nothing. In opponents' play, or their expectations of your play, a lot.

I'm certainly NOT saying that you shouldn't have played aggressively. It's just that you have to be prepared for the fact that aggressive play is going to piss some people off in these games (especially since your g/f was in fact at the same table), and be prepared to mount a charm offensive to counteract it. I'm no good at it either, so I really am the pot calling the kettle black.

[MicroBob]

Last time I played 1/5 stud (waiting for 10/20 holdem) I had 2 players get on my case for raising EVER...because we supposedly were just playing for the bad-beat jackpot and didn't want to raise each other out.
I politely ignored them (for lack of better term) and kept raising when I wanted to and they were getting really pissy about it.
Oh well.
If I had my GF there raising along with me it might have caused a national incident for them...but, alas, it was just me.

Yes - I do want to claify that nobody here is telling you not to raise.
Just don't be surprised when people get upset at you for doing so.
The reason people will get upset at you was nicely described in AKQJ10's post....but he doesn't need to go into quite so much detail behind the logic.
It can just as easily be summed up as 'the reason people get upset at you for raising is because people are stupid.'

And you will NEVER find a poker game that doesn't contain stupid people.


(fwiw - my GF doesn't play poker and has zero interest...so this isn't going to happen...but I've played with friends before who play aggressively along with me and have had it start to raise eyebrows...not to the problems the poster had though....but I can see where it can get to that).

[dopp16]

it wasnt an old retarded person that called the floor though....it was in fact the younger guy with sunglasses and headphones who claimed he was a dealer at a different casino, I understand your point microbob, why piss off the people that are paying you, but my comment was more toward the floor and the mystery dealer than towards the fartbags making most of the comments.

PS- I still don't understand why it would be more tolerable to lose your cool at a 40/80 then a 1/5

[MicroBob]

No. I don't think it is.
I was just thinking 'out loud' (so to speak) I guess.


My initial thought was 'why ever lose-it in a 1/5 stud game'?
then i thought 'well...i guess some people might think it's okay to lose it at a higher limit because there's actual REAL money on the line...but i don't think even that is justification either since you should have known that already.'


it was a long-winded round-about way of thinking. i don't think losing one's cool is justified in any of the situations i can think of.


but i still go back to what i said before (and what youtalkfunny, a former dealer, agreed with): that whaty you were describing...2 people who know each other raising and re-raising really aggressively....can easily look like collusion.
And I think you need to be cognizant of that appearance in the future.
I'm not sure specifically what you can or should do. I am NOT advocating changing your playing style in the least. Just have an awareness that it WILL raise some eyebrows (in other words, if you keep playing 1/5 stud with your GF I'm guessing that someone will have issues with your play again...although hopefully it won't get to the point that it did in this situation)

[shant]

Live play sucks.

[dopp16]

yeah, nothing beats sitting in your underwear with a pale 5 o clock shadow and empty 16 oz old milwakee cans sitting all over your room