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View Full Version : 88 flop play in lv. 2 ($109)


Bonafone
08-12-2005, 03:52 AM
CO had played 2 hands, one of which he limped and folded on the flop and the other when he raised and took down the pot on the flop with a 3/4 pot bet.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 (t1465)
CO (t1045)
Button (t1745)
SB (t1100)
BB (t980)
UTG (t1895)
UTG+1 (t930)
Hero (t840)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t90</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls t60.

Flop: (t225) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets t125</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t300</font>, CO raises [t830] t125, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t650

flytrap
08-12-2005, 04:39 AM
You made a good fold most likely, I'd expect him to have at least a flush draw and 2 overs, but more likely it's a bigger pair. I think you may have found out more cheaply by raising to t90 preflop, then folding to his pf reraise. Another line that may have lost less, as well as preventing a free turn if you're ahead is to lead the flop with about a 3/4 pot bet. I would probably fold if you're raised on the flop.

lastchance
08-12-2005, 06:17 AM
t350 on the flop has to be worth taking down. Shove to the bet.

bennies
08-12-2005, 06:56 AM
It's a tough spot I think. One thing I disregard completely is the flush draw, call me crazy...

One thing that could help is putting villain on a range of hands. Judging from the preflop raise I'll put him on a tight range of 99-AA and AJ-AK. If we count the combinations there are 36 with the pair and 48 without. So pretty even... unfortunatly. If we include KQ it becomes pretty weighted towards the non-pairs though (64). This is a good thing.

However, not too many people would re-reraise the flop without a pair. That's a bad thing.

I suppose our job on the flop is to find out if he has the pair or not. How do we do this the cheapest, probably like you did - checkraise, fold to a reraise. The problem is that it is a pretty expensive way to find out, and, a good/tricky villain could reraise without the pair, with outs and folding equity.

I'd probably just call and check/call all the way to the river if no A falls. It seems to me this is the best possibility we have of cutting our losses without giving up the pot.

I like lastchances check-raise-allin on the flop too, the problem is just that it doesn't fold out the hands we really want to fold, that is, the higher pairs. They might be afraid of you having trips but I think they'll most always call anyway. Therefore, I prefer the checkcall line even if it gives out free cards.

08-13-2005, 01:25 AM
I played a hand very similar to this in a $50 and $5 tournament a couple of days ago. I called a raise to 45 from middle-late position with 88. The flop came rags. He bet out 125, I raised to 300, and he pushed all in. I called (thought I was committed at that point) and he showed KK. If I could play it over again I might re-raise preflop and fold to a push or I would fold to a push after my reraise on the flop and try to make the most of my remaining 500 chips.

lastchance
08-13-2005, 01:29 AM
One of the things you learn here is to play your draws aggressively. I would have no problem betting and reraising AK of hearts here. (or any 2 overs, for that matter)

There's t350 in the pot when it first gets to you on the flop. There's multiple opponents, and a whole slew of overs making your life tough. Push to the original bet. [list]

bennies
08-13-2005, 09:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]
One of the things you learn here is to play your draws aggressively. I would have no problem betting and reraising AK of hearts here. (or any 2 overs, for that matter)

There's t350 in the pot when it first gets to you on the flop. There's multiple opponents, and a whole slew of overs making your life tough. Push to the original bet. [list]

[/ QUOTE ]

There is only one opponent. I'm sure you and other 2+2 posters could keep raising with two random overcards, but I don't think the average player would.

bigt439
08-13-2005, 11:06 AM
[ QUOTE ]
t350 on the flop has to be worth taking down. Shove to the bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is very bad advice. There are not very many chips in the pot at all and you get called when you're beat (usually pretty badly by an overpair, or marginally by two overs and the draw), and you fold out hands that you beat. You're not winning very much here considering the action. What makes you think you have the best hand? You can't just decide that. Your advice is suicide, that much I'm sure of. My advice, which I'm not positive is correct, would be to lead the flop and fold to a raise. You just don't have a great hand to get tricky with. A check raise leaves you confused if called and down alot of chips if pushed over. And he doesn't fold that much I don't think. Pot continuations are rarer at this level than you'd think.

45suited
08-13-2005, 11:12 AM
I think that you made a good fold. There's no particular reason to put him on the flush draw, everything about his play feels like an overpair. If he had the stones to 3 bet you with just two overs, more power to him. But the vast majority of the time (IMO), you were badly beaten here.

I just noticed that this is a 109, so I'm out of my element here. But at the levels that I am familiar with, I think that this is a good fold.