Am I just living a sheltered online poker life?

[awarunn]

It was my first time to the Trump casino in the Chicago area and I was going there to play the $200 max NL game. I got there and realized that the $200 max NL game is $2/$5. Isn't this an extremely short stack to sit down with at a $2/$5 NL table? I did it anyway since I was there and all excited to play some real live B&M poker. The next thing that I thought was odd was the way they took the "rake". Every 30 minutes everyone at the table had to pay $7 for 'time'. This means we are paying $14 an hour just to play at the table. This means that in order to make 1BB/hour you'd really have to be making 3BB/hour. Is this the 'norm' in the live casino scene or is this place just a bad place to play? On the positive side, the two tables I sat at were very soft.

So...where do all the chicago players play at?

[phuc]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this an extremely short stack to sit down with at a $2/$5 NL table?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's a fairly short stack game in the beginning until you double up or win a few pots to get a decent sized stack, but if you can handle a few all-ins with the best hand, you will be very comfortable at the table with a decent stack against other people playing short, especially with the standard size of preflop raises at that game. Just be aware that with $200, if you call a preflop raise and hit the flop, you may be going all-in pretty quickly. I suggest reloading to $200 every time you fall below the max because then you have the best chance of getting a good stack size.

[ QUOTE ]
The next thing that I thought was odd was the way they took the "rake". Every 30 minutes everyone at the table had to pay $7 for 'time'. This means we are paying $14 an hour just to play at the table. This means that in order to make 1BB/hour you'd really have to be making 3BB/hour. Is this the 'norm' in the live casino scene or is this place just a bad place to play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is the 'norm' around here for NL games. I prefer it to the rake because in the end, the rake costs more to the all players, though it gives an advantage to players who play fewer pots.

[ QUOTE ]
So...where do all the chicago players play at?

[/ QUOTE ]

We play at Trump or Resorts, the only places that spread NL games here...unless you want to travel farther away.

[djoyce003]

that rake isn't that bad for a nl 2/5 game. You oughta be able to average around 20 big blinds per /100 if you are good, which would translate to around 15-25 per hour in live play i guess I guess...i'm sure the players are pretty terrible as well.

[mrbaseball]

[ QUOTE ]
So...where do all the chicago players play at?

[/ QUOTE ]

Party and PokerStars mostly.

[phuc]

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This means that in order to make 1BB/hour you'd really have to be making 3BB/hour.

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This is the other thing I forgot to mention...in a NL game, you aren't expecting to make 1-2BB/hour like you are in a limit game. I would expect someone to make 5-10BB, even more if you are a decent player at this game.

[awarunn]

Okay, thanks...
Should I alter my preflop raise when I first sit down since I am short stacked? Instead of the standard 3-5xBB should I keep it down towards 3x? Or should I just play normal and keep reloading when I fall too far below $200?

[canis582]

2-5 $200 max is the structure at the Bellagio when I played. Most raises were $20-$30. $10 and $15 were seen as wuss bets, but that may be different for this one.

[awarunn]

And another question...
This was seriously my first brick and mortar experience so...what's up with this seat change button? People were seriously getting pissed off about who get's it next and stuff. I'm guessing it gives you dibs on the next empty seat at the table? Do you get one if you voluntarily move or something? Why were people so passionate about it?

[10-20Jerome]

BS poker IMO. NL with a cap buyin? Its set up for very very bad players, the kind that also perfer BJ, craps, let it ride, etc. There is no real postflop play if they avg stack is say 150or200. I dont play alot of these games so I could be wrong. These games disgust me, when I play NL I perfer the no cap buy ins. Better game, just my opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
BS poker IMO. NL with a cap buyin? Its set up for very very bad players, the kind that also perfer BJ, craps, let it ride, etc. There is no real postflop play if they avg stack is say 150or200. I dont play alot of these games so I could be wrong. These games disgust me, when I play NL I perfer the no cap buy ins. Better game, just my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I do believe that games with cap buy-ins are better. It's nice to sit at a table where most people have stacks near your size when you sit down. Trump also has a 400 min - 1000 max game and a 1500 min - no max game. These different "limits" are spread, I would think, to open games up to more people who don't necessarily have the cash or skill to sit there playing against people who can buy in right away for a couple grand if they want to.

[IgorSmiles]

I can live with a cap, but 2/5 should be $500 not $200.

Do not lower your starting raise amount, unless you want to see your big pairs cracked.

[runnerunner]

So exactly why don't you want to play a game that is set up to accomodate to very very bad players? This game at the Trump is soft with a capital S. If I had $50 for every time I heard some donkey push with second pair and say "I was shortstacked, I had to go all in"......wait a second, I do have $50 for every time they said that!!

The game is set up to cater to WPT clowns who can go all in without risking a month's pay. The rake is brutal, but the game is as soft as it gets.

[MicroBob]

Lots of players PREFER time-charge games (I've never playe in one).


9 seated players (on average) X $14 for each hour = $126/hr that the casino is taking in.

The 'other' way would be perhaps $4 'average' rake on 40 hands an hour for $160/hr.

Just very rough estimates.

If it's one of those places that would typically take up to $6-max out of the bigger pots then even a tighter player would probably be better off in a time-charge game such as this imo.


I recently learned via these forums that even some limit games down to 10/20 are 'time-charge' games in Atlantic City.
I think it's usually 40/80 or 80/160 or stuff like that which are time-charge games in Calif or Vegas (but I don't really know since I don't play that high).

I would LOVE for the 10/20 that I play at the Horseshoe in Tunica to be a time-charge game. The dealers are quite good and they have the automatic shufflers in the tables...so we are typically getting quite a few hands cranked out per hour.


Obviously...the faster the dealers are...the more the players should prefer the time-charge way of doing things.

If the dealers are pretty slow then you might get pretty ticked off thinking about the 'rate' that you are now paying per hand (or at least I would).

[bobbyi]

2/5 with a 200 buyin is an extremely common structure nowadays (in some california cardrooms like the bike and the commerce, they do 3/5 blinds instead). In my area, that is actually the only casino NL game available. People often play long sessions in a casino, so the stack sizes can get to a reasonable size, even though the starting amount is small. In online games where a lot of people play short sessions and hop tables (forcing you to reset to the max buyin or less), it makes much more sense to have a larger max buyin relative to the blinds.

$7/half is a pretty expensive time charge for this game. I don't know what is standard for no limit, but for limit holdem that is usually about what you would pay for a 20/40 game or so, which is quite a bit larger than a 2/5 no limit.

That is how they did it in Vegas when I was there. I like the time rule better than the rake whihc was 10% up to $4 for every hand if I remember correctly, which ends up being pretty expensive (compared to online poker anyway).

[bobbyi]

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I recently learned via these forums that even some limit games down to 10/20 are 'time-charge' games in Atlantic City.

[/ QUOTE ]
In NYC, I have played in time charge 4/8 games.

[MicroBob]

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$7/half is a pretty expensive time charge for this game.

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yes it is.
but I think some of the Indiana and Illinois rooms have a $6 max-rake even on 3/6 limit so I guess I'm not surprised (note - have no idea if this is the kind of rake they have on some of the limit games at the casino he was at).

[phuc]

[ QUOTE ]
yes it is.
but I think some of the Indiana and Illinois rooms have a $6 max-rake even on 3/6 limit so I guess I'm not surprised (note - have no idea if this is the kind of rake they have on some of the limit games at the casino he was at).

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, Harrah's (now Resorts) went to a $6 max rake for a few months until Trump became competition and they had to lower it back to $5 max...but there is still the $1 jackpot drop so it makes it $6 anyway.

[phuc]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, thanks...
Should I alter my preflop raise when I first sit down since I am short stacked? Instead of the standard 3-5xBB should I keep it down towards 3x? Or should I just play normal and keep reloading when I fall too far below $200?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do not lower your preflop raise size. The fish at Trump will call large preflop raises with horrible hands. Just make sure you have a premium hand when you do raise with a short stack because you will likely go all-in. Raising small is asking to be cracked. I only do it to change my play up a bit and with Ace-suited or something like that in late position when there are lots of people in. Most of the fish don't realize that I'm just sweetening the pot in case I hit a nice draw. Good players will notice and re-raise you, but it's not too much of a worry.

[10-20Jerome]

Because its a very very bad game. I get win consistentaly(sp) at I game where it pays to play bad. Its set up almost like limit. EX. 185 in the pot, you have 3-4 short stack players, 2 to a flush on the flop. There is no way I can bet a 75 stack of a flush draw or for that matter I cant even bluff a guy(or women) of a pot. I know in none capped you run into short stack, just not as often.

Is a total different game, no caps. I can call a big bet on the flop with full intentions of betting or raising the turn with nothing. I can do this because with no cap its not "all-in" poker. If my bet on the turn leaves me with say 1750 left. And my opponent(s) stil have 1500-2000, you can see the choice they might have to make on the river.

Im not being a smart ass or anything, I personaly know of serval people that perfer these games and excel. They have adjusted there play to these games. I learned NL with no cap and I cant figure out these games where a big pot consist of at least two players allin. In the NL I know pots can still be big(over 1250-1500) with nobody being all in..

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[MicroBob]

As Jerome knows: The 1/2 NL game at the Gold Strike in Tunica is no cap and it can get REALLY wild sometimes.


Kind of weird to see so many +$1000 stacks when you sit down at a 1/2 NL game (especially if you're used to the capped buy-in type of NL game).

Some drunk with $2k or so in front of him raising $50 PF with total garbage to steal the $3 in blinds OR get involved in some big pot again.

(I mention this game just for the interest of other posters not from the Tunica area....this isn't news to Jerome and I suspect that the game I am referring to is one that he prefers)

[IgorSmiles]

A cap is fine. A cap that allows for no post flop play blows and really isnt conducive to good poker.

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
...what's up with this seat change button? People were seriously getting pissed off about who get's it next and stuff...Why were people so passionate about it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because people are idiots.

People are very territorial. "That's MY seat!!!"

Ever ask a poker player to move over 6 inches? He'll wiggle in his chair, PRETENDING to move, all the while not giving up one inch of territory.

You're new to B&M, but those of us who aren't have seen this countless times: The #8 seat sits empty for an hour. When someone finally approaches the table with chips, and is JUST about to sit his fanny in the chair, somebody in the game will pipe up, "I want that seat!" It sat empty for an HOUR. NO ONE WANTED IT, until somebody else showed interest in it. It's completely irrational, IMO.

Now mix in all the idiots who think their luck will change if they move to a different chair, and you can see why the Seat Change Button (dibs, as you say) is in such high demand.

(Personally, I like to sit at the end of the table. I like to be able to see all my opponents, and the curve of the table means more room for my fat ass. If I start next to or across from the dealer, I'll try to move to an end seat when available--but I'm not going to fight and scream irrationally about it.)

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
And another question...
This was seriously my first brick and mortar experience so...what's up with this seat change button? People were seriously getting pissed off about who get's it next and stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this some type of Chicago thing? Oftentimes at Foxwoods I'll ask for a seat change button as soon as I sit down, and many times I'll hang onto it for hours, and sometimes I'll forget to give it back to the dealer even if I do switch seats. Although there have been occasions where someone else will also request a seat change button, I've never heard a cross word in regards to this button--and this is at a casino where players can sometimes be fairly unpleasant.