My first stop'n'go post, lol

[ChuckNorris]

S'n'G or fold?

Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: CamelDana11 ( $2460 )
Seat 6: r_descartes ( $1080 )
Seat 7: luckylesley ( $1795 )
Seat 8: Mulperi ( $830 )
Seat 9: bchamm ( $1965 )
Seat 10: TamsROff ( $1870 )
Blinds(100/200)

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mulperi [ As 9h ]
bchamm raises [400].
4 fold
Mulperi ???

[SammyKid11]

I don't hate a S'n'G here. Depending on the raiser, I might go for it.

[Nottom]

fold

[bennies]

I'm to chicken, so I'd fold.

I think it might be a +EV move, especially if you had 100 more chips to get a little more FE on the flop.

[lastchance]

Level?

How donkish is UTG?

God, I hate folding this spot, but if Villain has AA-99 and AK+AQ...

Crappage.

Yeah, if you're playing this (read: Villain sucks at poker), stop and go.

[ChuckNorris]

Talking about S'n'G:

#Game No : 2520788624
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 1: Mulperi ( $7350 )
Seat 5: trikie ( $2650 )
Blinds(300/600)

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mulperi [ 5d 5c ]
trikie raises [1600].
Mulperi calls [1300].

** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, Qh, Js ]
Mulperi is all-In [5450]
trikie folds.
Mulperi does not show cards.
Mulperi wins 9250 chips

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[valenzuela]

reads? Have u see him minireaised frequently..if so Stop n go.

[MegaBet]

You don't have enough chips for a stop n go here. Once you call the 400 preflop, you'll only have 430 left to bet. Either go all in preflop or fold. Considering the raise, I'd fold unless you can be fairly certain villian plays weak aces or a low pocket pair this way.

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't have enough chips for a stop n go here. Once you call the 400 preflop, you'll only have 430 left to bet. Either go all in preflop or fold. Considering the raise, I'd fold unless you can be fairly certain villian plays weak aces or a low pocket pair this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my mind this is a question of do I have too much chips for a stop'n'go, not one of having enough. That is to say, the question is whether am I committed to the pot or not. If I had a healthier stack, I'd have no trouble folding this, since I figure to be behind villains range here.

How can you have too little chips for a stop'n'go? If you have one chip left after posting in the BB, you have enough chips to s'n'g. And how exactly is shoving preflop better than on the flop?

[bennies]

Assuming we agree that the objective of the St & G is to make our opponents fold... - one chip is not enough to do this. You usually need at least half the pot, and you barely have that here.


by the way, I visited your beautiful town two weeks ago, wow, what a nice location, what great architecture, what a cool young population not choosing their wardrobe from H&M...

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming we agree that the objective of the St & G is to make our opponents fold... - one chip is not enough to do this. You usually need at least half the pot, and you barely have that here.


[/ QUOTE ]

Of course with 1 chip left it is trivial whether or not to push preflop or on the flop. The point is that if the preflop raise would commit villain preflop, you should push the flop, since on the flop villains aren't always committed and are more eager to fold if they have missed the flop.

I'm 99,5% certain that in the HUP example I posted my opponent would have instacalled my preflop push, but on the flop they folded to a less than 1/4 pot bet. The villain in OP could doesn't need to be as big a donk as my HUP opponent to fold to a stop'n'go.

[ QUOTE ]
by the way, I visited your beautiful town two weeks ago, wow, what a nice location, what great architecture, what a cool young population not choosing their wardrobe from H&M...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
It's pretty nice here. I just don't like the long winters.

[MegaBet]

Put yourself in villain's position. The lowstack calls a raise preflop then automatically goes all in on the flop. Wouldn't that seem fishy to you? Assuming villain has the broad range of 22-AA, AK-A10, would you fold to an all-in bet from a lowstack of 430 when the pot is 800+?

Stop n go's are generally more effective on or near the bubble when you have more chips and people are more willing to fold.

I have also been to Helsinki /images/graemlins/grin.gif January 1999. I believe the temperature was -38C /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
Put yourself in villain's position.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fishy thinking. The villain isn't me, they're an average $50+5'er, if no reads tell me otherwise.

[ QUOTE ]
Stop n go's are generally more effective on or near the bubble when you have more chips and people are more willing to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't mean that pushing preflop would be more effective than s'n'g here.

[ QUOTE ]
I have also been to Helsinki /images/graemlins/grin.gif January 1999. I believe the temperature was -38C /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, I'm not sure if it's ever been that cold in Helsinki. At least that must be the record or almost lowest temperature ever measured. Anyways, maybe you understand why I'm not such a big fan of our climate here. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[bennies]

-38! Wow, you were lucky!

You should have seen it two weeks ago, people were freezing so much that their clothes was ripped, their long boots had turned black while their hair was purple /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

for it to actually be a stop and go you have to have at least enough chips to make the villian consider folding.

you dont have enough chips to do that, pick another spot to try out your newfound FPS.

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't have enough chips for a stop n go here. Once you call the 400 preflop, you'll only have 430 left to bet. Either go all in preflop or fold. Considering the raise, I'd fold unless you can be fairly certain villian plays weak aces or a low pocket pair this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the only choices are either SNG or fold. An all-in produces an autocall by villain since he is getting 3-1.

The idea of a SNG is to create some small amount of fold equity in a situation where you have none. A bad flop for villain might give you some fold equity, otherwise you just end up in the same place a push would have gotten you.

And a call by Villian isn't so bad, I think you are likely ahead here.

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
And a call by Villian isn't so bad, I think you are likely ahead here.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think he is ahead, why don't you recommend a push? Get the money in with the best hand, considering how low he is on chips.

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Put yourself in villain's position.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fishy thinking. The villain isn't me, they're an average $50+5'er, if no reads tell me otherwise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Fishy thinking? No way! Empathy is a huge weapon in a poker player's arsenal. I am always trying to put myself in the other person's position to anticipate what he will do or what he is thinking. I'm not sure you can be a winning player without being able to do this.

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]

you dont have enough chips to do that, pick another spot to try out your newfound FPS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop N Go isn't FPS, it's a basic play and this is a pretty standard situation for it. Ask Greg Raymer how many times he's used it in big tournaments.

And if Hero had enough chips to make Villain fold the flop, then does he have enough to make Villain lay down pre-flop? For example if Hero could bet the pot (900 chips) he could go all-in pre-flop, and Villian would be now getting 2-1 on a call. Still compelling odds, but he may not want to gamble losing his big stack size. Of course if hero has 1300 chips with 200 blinds, is A9o the hand to make a stand with?

In this example, what do you think the dividing lines between SNG and Push are for hero's stack size (ignoring fold for the moment)?

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]

If you think he is ahead, why don't you recommend a push? Get the money in with the best hand, considering how low he is on chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I didn't realize villain was stealing from such an early position, so I'm not confident we're ahead.

But assume we did think we were ahead, would the SNG or the push be better. Assume UTG has KQo, and calls a push 100% of the time. But instead we SNG. Any flop that he folds increases our win percentage even if we were ahead on that flop.

For example if he folds on a AJx flop, we win 100% of the time when we should have only won a little more than 80% (he'll hit a straight about 18% of the time).

It's not a huge difference since there are likely few flops he'd fold with KQ, but it's a significant one. A better example may be a medium pair. Would he fold 99 on a two overcard flop? Occasionally is all it takes.

Once again, you are increasing your chances of winning a small percentage over a push. That's all a SNG can do for you, but that makes it valuable.

Of course folding in this example may increase your chances of ITM much more:)

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
for it to actually be a stop and go you have to have at least enough chips to make the villian consider folding.

you dont have enough chips to do that, pick another spot to try out your newfound FPS.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has nothing to do with FPS. The question here is am I committed to play the hand. If I decide to play it, to stop'n'go is standard play, a no-brainer.

I don't understand why this has turned into yet another ridiculous debate about how shoving the flop and committing villain to call is supposedly better than stop'n'go.

My question here is that while it might look like a pretty easy fold at a first glance, the pot odds are significant, and I am certain that villains range on average is much looser than the JJ, AQ that it might look like to someone. My experience is that a lot of donks at the $55 who love to miniraise just don't understand position, and they miniraise with pretty much the same semigood hands regardless of position.

So, if I am a slight dog here, do you think that the pot odds and the small, yet very real, chance of the stop'n'go to work force me to play the hand?

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]

So, if I am a slight dog here, do you think that the pot odds and the small, yet very real, chance of the stop'n'go to work force me to play the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you'll have much fold equity if you are calling a better hand (except a mid-pocket pair). But given the high blinds and being so far from the money I would try it. If you fold you are down to 3BB, and close to losing all your fold equity.

Based on pot odds and a minor amount of fold equity from the S-N-G it's probably cEV+. Given that you are so far from the money doesn't that alone make it the correct decision?

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
Based on pot odds and a minor amount of fold equity from the S-N-G it's probably cEV+. Given that you are so far from the money doesn't that alone make it the correct decision?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think so. I can't exactly be picky in this situation.