HoH1(p323): You flop 2 pair and Harrington suggests you bet pot?! WHY?

[AA suited]

Lvl1, no reads.

You are utg+1 w/ATo. You min raise.
2 players after you call, and the blinds call.

Flop = AT5, 2 tone

Folded to you.

Harrington keeps hammering that you should make a little bit over 1/2pot bet to disguise continuation bets from when you actually have a hand. and it makes it incorrect to draw to.

His explanation of the pot size bet in this situation is that players w/Ax will call and to make it expensive to draw to.

But a little over 1/2pot bet does the same thing. A pot size bet is more likely to chase away drawers than a 60% pot bet. and with 2 pairs, you want callers.

plus a pot bet on the flop deviates from your normal betting pattern.

So I'm confused as to why he recommends that you bet out pot on this one?! /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[AA suited]

Anyone?

[maddog2030]

Do you habitually make a continuation bet with 5 players seeing a flop?

With 5 players, there's a good chance that there's at least one Ax out there and that it will call, especially when x = {K,Q,J}. So you will get plenty of value from them. Also, if Ax calls, now someone behind with a draw is getting better odds to call since more money is in the pot and there's better implied odds.

So I think a greater than 1/2 the pot is more than appropiate here.

[prepotency]

Maybe it's just me, but when I flop two pair in early blinds I prefer to just take the pot down. Especially after a successful pre-flop raise where I juiced up the pot a bit. If you bet the pot, everyone will fold except sets and strong aces. If there's a set, well that's just life; but if there's a strong AK/Q/J then you're going to make some serious chips here. It makes sense to me. Might as well just put it out there and let the straight draws / flush draws fold. I use my two pairs, in early blinds, to get a little bit of cash but usually nothing major and I think this play suits their purpose as far as I am concerned. What do you think regarding the blind level AASuited?

[MegaBet]

You have to bet here, especially with a number of people in the pot. I would always do this. I wouldn't want to give the drawers a free card, and I'd also want to value bet if someone else has AK, AQ or any other ace or 10 depending on reads. Betting between 1/2 and the pot is a good play, even more so if (like me) you make a lot of continuation bets.

[prepotency]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you habitually make a continuation bet with 5 players seeing a flop?

With 5 players, there's a good chance that there's at least one Ax out there and that it will call, especially when x = {K,Q,J}. So you will get plenty of value from them. Also, if Ax calls, now someone behind with a draw is getting better odds to call since more money is in the pot and there's better implied odds.

So I think a greater than 1/2 the pot is more than appropiate here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely agree here. These types of continuation bets with 5 players seeing the flop will lead to the first person on your left calling your 60% bet and then you get everyone just following along. By the time the button sees the action, they may go all-in and the pot has become so large that every flush/straight draw is playing. That spells disaster. I've seen it happen many a time.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Lvl1, no reads.

You are utg+1 w/ATo. You min raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

you do what now?

[maddog2030]

[ QUOTE ]
you do what now?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of Harrington's examples involve chimp plays early in the hand, but ask for the correct play later in the hand. He usually points out how chimpish some of the earlier action in the hand was.

[jon462]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lvl1, no reads.

You are utg+1 w/ATo. You min raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

you do what now?

[/ QUOTE ]

apparently you need to potty really bad and are hoping to get yourself in a dominating situation so you can go home! Unfortunately, that horrible 2 pair flop spoiled your plan!

[Nicholasp27]

let's examine pot size management briefly...

4 other players in the t150 pot

Your way:
you bet t90 (60% of pot)

next player is getting 2.67-1 odds to call and has ax...he calls

next player now has 3.67-1 odds to call and calls with whatever...remember, there are fish in sngs and on lvl1 u get more that will call anything

next player has flush draw, so needs 4.5-1 odds, but there is now t420 in pot, so he has 4.67-1 odds

final player has 5.67-1 odds and calls

pot is now 510

3rd of a suit comes out...u are now first and the 3rd player has you with flush draw and t510 in pot...u only have 10% chance of boat and u are worried about flush...what do u do now, and what do u do when flush raises big or pushes you?


Pot Size:
u bet 150 into 150 to make pot 300
even if next 2 call, it's 150 for 600 or 4-1, not quite enough for a flush draw...and less likely that the other 2 would call pot anyway, unless they have an ace...u are most likely gonna get flush draw to fold and get to put ak/aq/aj all in by the river and double up


so i'd bet pot here and pray someone has ax or even kt/qt that they won't let go of

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you habitually make a continuation bet with 5 players seeing a flop?

With 5 players, there's a good chance that there's at least one Ax out there and that it will call, especially when x = {K,Q,J}. So you will get plenty of value from them. Also, if Ax calls, now someone behind with a draw is getting better odds to call since more money is in the pot and there's better implied odds.

So I think a greater than 1/2 the pot is more than appropiate here.

[/ QUOTE ]

i make a 60%pot cont bet if there are 2 players or less after me. in this situation, since the blinds checked, there are only 2 players after me. so i usually will make a cont bet. I've had good success doing this in the 55's.

if more than 3 players left to act, i check, unless i have tp or better. if the latter, i will make my standard 60%pot.

hm.. based on your explanation, maybe i should pot it when i have something if there are more than 2 players left to act.