I just started laughing hysterically

[sng-sam]

***** Hand History for Game 2518651658 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:14752058 Level:8 Blinds(200/400) - Thursday, August 11, 20:05:12 EDT 2005
Table Table 13863 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 4: sngsam ( $3770 )
Seat 8: SuitedJokerz ( $2170 )
Seat 9: bachhaiduong ( $2060 )
Trny:14752058 Level:8
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to sngsam [ Kh Kc ]
SuitedJokerz is all-In [2170]
bachhaiduong is all-In [1860]
sngsam: OMG
>You have options at Table 13969 Table!.
>You have options at Table 13943 Table!.
sngsam: I hope these hold up
sngsam calls [1770].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qh, 4h, Qd ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4d ]
SuitedJokerz shows [ 2h, Qc ] a full house, Queens full of fours.
bachhaiduong shows [ 4c, 4s ] four of a kind, fours.
sngsam shows [ Kh, Kc ] two pairs, kings and queens.
SuitedJokerz wins 220 chips from side pot #1 with a full house, Queens full of fours.
bachhaiduong wins 6180 chips from the main pot with four of a kind, fours.
wow

[CatfishKing]

lol that is pretty funny

[jedinite]

Wow, that sucks.

Honestly this might be one of the only times I fold KK preflop - the +EV of the hand doesn't seem worth the difference, being that the winner will have less than a BB lead on you... and I figure I can outplay the winner heads up if we're anywhere near even.

But maybe I'm being weak/tight... i just like to stay out of the way of the two-way all-in gambool in front and be able to play heads up for the win...

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, that sucks.

Honestly this might be one of the only times I fold KK preflop - the +EV of the hand doesn't seem worth the difference, being that the winner will have less than a BB lead on you... and I figure I can outplay the winner heads up if we're anywhere near even.

But maybe I'm being weak/tight... i just like to stay out of the way of the two-way all-in gambool in front and be able to play heads up for the win...

[/ QUOTE ]

Awful. I can't believe you would even think about folding this.

[durron597]

I believe you were looking for this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3111669&page=1&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

[jedinite]

like i said... /images/graemlins/blush.gif
[ QUOTE ]
But maybe I'm being weak/tight

[/ QUOTE ]

[jedinite]

[ QUOTE ]
Awful. I can't believe you would even think about folding this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, if you don't mind dispensing a little more advice, as a more experienced player what hand range do you put the caller on here so I can do a little math and see just how wrong I am? TIA...

[tshort]

At a $20 table?

The original pusher ... I would guess anything.

As for the caller it depends on how tight he's been, but any middle pocket-pair or higher, A9+, KJ+ are all possible. If the original pusher has been very LAG, maybe even a few more.

[Lori]

One of the first things is that one of your opponents is almost certainly going out this hand, even if one is lucky enough to beat you in the pot. (I know this didn't happen this time, but it will happen incredibly often)

Then you have to ask yourself, do you think your kings are likely to win the pot versus the best hand of the other two players for all the chips.

Finally, you look at your stack, (Although you shouldn't be in doubt by now) and realise that even if somehow you have misjudged the strength of your KK. (Which you shouldn't) you will STILL have 1600 or so chips left after getting the other two things wrong.

Sometimes it can be hard for a newer player to get a sense of perspective. Looking at all of these factors can often help, although in time this one is so automatic that you'll look back at this post and giggle /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Lori

[jedinite]

Thanks for the response, Lori and tshort. I was overlooking the fact that hero would have 4BB left, not a lot but hero is not right out if he loses.

Maybe I'm a little tighter (or weaker) in my hand range analysis, but my original thought was I see KK as about a 55%-65% winner over the hand ranged I would give them: Ax, AA-TT from the caller plus any two cards from the original raiser. Including hands without an ace (Kx, etc) for the caller certainly makes it much different.

I guess with only ~500 SNGs I'm still too focused maximizing my finish place versus making the +EV play every time... because folding what I see as "only" a 60% favorite despite 2-1 pot odds still crosses my mind, when i'm almost guaranteed second place money here. But again I'll go back to calling myself out as weak/tight here /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[MegaBet]

I see this on a daily basis...no big deal.

[djoyce003]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Awful. I can't believe you would even think about folding this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, if you don't mind dispensing a little more advice, as a more experienced player what hand range do you put the caller on here so I can do a little math and see just how wrong I am? TIA...

[/ QUOTE ]

The blinds are 200/400. I'd put the caller on a HUGE range of hands, any pocket pair, any ace. Hero is so far out in front of almost any hand here it's not even funny.

[Nicholasp27]

well, a good portion of the time, u win the hand...when u win u are 100% 1st place

taking your 55%, then .5(ev)*.55=.275
if u lose, then you are still around .30 ev, so .45*.3=.135

total=.41, which is halfway between 1st and 2nd

if u let them battle it out, then you will be slightly below .4 because u will have <50% of chips hu

so it's about .41 to .39...however, whenever the bigger of the two of them wins the hand after u fold, ur ev is up to around .33 or more, so ur actual ev when u call is >.41

so you are giving up around $6-10 in a 20 by folding kk here

doesn't matter what actually happens...just that in long run, folding kk in these situations is gonna lose you $6-10 every time you do it


note: i didn't use icm calculator for any of the above, so the #s may be off some...i'm also not sure of 55% for kk vs the 2 hands

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I was overlooking the fact that hero would have 4BB left, not a lot but hero is not right out if he loses.


[/ QUOTE ]

this doesn't really matter. you could shuffle stacks a little so hero would bust if he loses and it's still an auto-call.

[ QUOTE ]
Ax, AA-TT

[/ QUOTE ]

a) this is too tight. the chance that guy folds 77 is very low.
b) KK still crushes that range.

[Apathy]

Nice slow roll. /images/graemlins/mad.gif