What to do with JJ...?

[RiverMel]

I have stack of about 1500, 30 players to get busted before the money (40 left), average stack is a little more than 1700. I'm EMP with JJ. UTG has about 2200(seems to be reasonably able player, but I've only witnessed about 15 hands of his play b/c he was just moved to table) opens for bbx2, I raise all-in. UTG calls. UTG turns over KK. It's all over.

OK, now I know that it's not very common to run into AA, KK, or QQ, but still, it seems to me like I get hurt with JJ or only win a little almost every time. I guess that's because in most cases someone calling all-in (if that person isn't really short stacked) will have an overpair or two overcards almost every time. Taking down 3.5x the big blind doesn't seem worth risking 15x the big blind--if I risk that much I want a pretty good chance of doubling up, something which JJ seems to do very rarely.

Anyone with insight on what you do in this particular situation or more generally with JJ, I'd like to hear it. Thanks. /forums/images/icons/club.gif

[Martin Aigner]

You wrote: "I guess that's because in most cases someone calling all-in (if that person isn't really short stacked) will have an overpair or two overcards almost every time. Taking down 3.5x the big blind doesn't seem worth risking 15x the big blind--if I risk that much I want a pretty good chance of doubling up, something which JJ seems to do very rarely."

I think you got this all right, that´s why I think that you should have just called preflop with JJ in this scenario (reasonable playing UTG raises). Treat JJ in this case just like 77.

BTW, I know what dilemma you can be in if you have JJ against a higher pocket pair, and it´s not that rare as you stated. I just got eliminated with JJ against AA ( in the BB) in a € 2k buy in tourney yesterday. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

Regards

Martin Aigner

[ohkanada]

What were the blinds? The answer is different if the blinds are 10-20 or 100-200.

One of the questions you need to ask when you re-raise all-in with JJ, is what type of hands will he call your raise with? If he only calls with AK/QQ+, then the raise may not be optimal.

Ken Poklitar

[RiverMel]

Sorry, while it could have been deduced from my post (stack of 1500, risking 15x big blind), I should have been more explicit, blinds were 50/100. /forums/images/icons/club.gif

[davidross]

Ok Martin, if you wouldn’t mind let’s assume we call as you suggest and the flop comes T 7 3 rainbow, and he bets the pot. Now what?

[ohkanada]

Duh /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Much easier decision if blinds are 10-20 or 100-200. With 10-20 I make a pot sized raise. With 100-200 I raise all-in.

With 50-100 and a raise of 200 in front of you, a pot sized raise is 750 which is 1/2 your stack. You could make it 500 and if he re-raises you need to decide if you are good or not. I typically don't like betting 1/3 of my stack and folding. If he just calls and the flop is low and he checks it would be tough not to bet all-in. If instead he bets all-in on the flop, you have a tougher choice.

I don't normally just call with JJ. Maybe based on the stack sizes this might be one example that it works better than making a 2/3 pot size re-raise.

The other thing to watch for is when someone either limps UTG or does the limit raise UTG after never doing such a thing. Sometimes it says AA/KK. In one of my tournies I played last week, someone limped UTG with QQ. The blind raises all-in. QQ calls and win a nice pot vs TT.

I think it is best to post the results AFTER you get a few responses.

Ken Poklitar

[RiverMel]

Thanks martin and ken, these posts were helpful in thinking through the problem.

[Vince Lepore]

This is a good question. I'm surprised Fossilman and Sklansky haven't taken a shot at it. This is a crucial decision even though you are still far from the money. But it's only a crucial decision if you are wrong. Any reasonably good player that calls the all in raise will have at minimum A,Ks with a more likely hand being A,A or K,K. So either you are a slight favorite or a big dog if called. With that in mind how do you like your hand now? With a hand like J,J and a comfortable stack to blind ratio I like to be first in. Not that I wouldn't call the original raise but I'm pretty sure that at the stage you mention I would fold. I guess it depends on how well I know my opponent. If I know he's not tricky and will only bet a favorable flop then I would probably call. If he is an "A" player then I would more likely than not fold to his initial raise. To play the situation you describe coreectly demands one have a good understanding of the technical and people aspects of poker plus the nuances associated with tournament play. This is a classic "Gap" concept hand. Can you see why?

Vince

[PSS]

I'm quite new to Poker so my thinking here might be off the wall here but anyway:

If the flop comes as you suggest (small, rainbow) I recone you're loosing all your chips. However as this happened anyway the result is the same.

If however the raiser has AK (and why not) and the flop comes small you might win by raising all in post flop, or get a call from AK when he has to hit a 6 outer with two cards to come (is that 2/1 against?).

At the same time, if an Ace or two overcards flop you might just get away from the hand.

Phil

[Martin Aigner]

That´s a good question. And the answer is: It depends /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

No, seriously, it´s a spot where you should try to get a read on your opponent. Obviously that´s difficult enough when you don´t know him, and probably impossible, if it´s online.

Las year at the final table a a pretty big tourney (first price: 74k) I was this situation: We had a huge chipleader (he had about 1/3 of the all in all 960k chips), we were about 7 handed, blinds were about 2/4k, ante 500 or 1000 (hey, it´s over a year now), i was in better than average chipposition with about 100k (I guess I was 3rd). CL (very good player) raised about 12k, I called with JJ. Rest mucked. Flop came something like 963 rainbow. CL bet about 25k, I raised to about 50k, he moved in on me. I thought for a very long time and mucked, although I was pot comitted. I thought I still had enough chips to play and dind´t want to be drwaing to a 2outer. I showed the Jacks since I was sure CL would show his hand too. He showed me A6! OUCH.

Same tourney this year I get JJ in the 3rd round, I´m down to 6k (from starting with 10k), Blinds 100/200 , I raise to 700 in the CO, BB (=chipleader at that time) calls. Flop comes 872, two clubs. I bet 2k, BB checkraises all in. I decided to call. I hoped that he had TT/99 or something like AJs with the flushdraw or T9. He showed me AA and I was out.

Maybe I´m not the right person to give advice on how to paly JJ /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

I think JJ and TT are the most difficult hands to play in NLHE. That´s why I usually just call a raise and most likely play hit or muck with them.

Regards

Martin Aigner