Third man walking rule....

[Joe Tall]

I did not want to hyjack the Wynn thread but in the Wynn thread Mason stated this:

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, I was there Friday night and discovered that they now have the "third man walking rule." I told a couple of their on duty managers that if they keep this rule and enforce it, they should be out of their jobs in the not to distant future.

[/ QUOTE ]

It may be a Foxwoods-specific thing but they have the rule and enforce it here. Granted, I'd rather play shorthanded but, as we all know, most do not. When the regulars are on top of it and/or the dealer; the floor is pretty good at picking someone up and filling that seat if they have been gone for too long. They are also very good at announcing over the PA to get back to your seats as "your game is in danger of breaking."

I would like what others think about the rule. I feel it keeps the game going. Granted there is nearly always a 12+ deep list at Foxwoods for the 20 game, 24hrs, maybe this has something to do with it.

[Tyler Durden]

can u explain the rule please?

[charlie_t_jr]

I beleive most Tunica rooms use the rule. I really have no opinion on the rule, other than when I've got a seat, I can play full or short. It does help with the massive wait lists though.

[stabn]

One of the biggest problems in vegas seems to be people abusing the rule to continually go away for an hour at a time while playing 5-10 hands when they finally come back before they take off yet again. So you basically can never get lunch or dinner and keep your seat because you always end up as the 3rd man walking since two local nits are always gone from your table. The rule ends up penalizing the tourists while letting the locals keep their seat forever.

[random]

If you're the third person to get up and take a break from the table, you have until the blinds get to you to get back or you lose your seat.

Edit: I think I had it wrong the first time.

[AngusThermopyle]

At Foxwoods, how long are the First and Second Men Walking allowed?
When they come back, do they have to "work off" their "missing buttons" or can they just play a round and then get up again?

[ QUOTE ]
At Foxwoods, how long are the First and Second Men Walking allowed?
When they come back, do they have to "work off" their "missing buttons" or can they just play a round and then get up again?


[/ QUOTE ]

After the third dealer change, they pick you up. When you come back, you post your BB and a dead SB. If you want to get up right after that, you can.

[AngusThermopyle]

In that case, the Third Man rule is terrible.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

In a room full of regulars who understand the rule, third man walking is just fine. The problem lies when a tourist is NOT allowed to get up and take a break because he's the third man. This would be made much worse if the tourist knew that the two already walking were regulars, out eating dinner, doing whatever, etc etc, thus forcing them to either stay in the short handed game, or get picked up for taking even a short break. So the rule has good intentions, keeping a game from going too short, but in practice it is more likely to confuse and piss off the tourists, while the locals will use the rule to be even nittier than they already are.

You don't want to piss off the tourists! Screw turd man walking!

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

In rooms where the rules are such that you can get rid of all your absent buttons by just posting and then leaving again, turd man walking is even worse. I much prefer your having to "work off" absent buttons by being at the table.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Local nits like the ones you describe are too common. That's why I like having to work off your absent buttons. But if you're not going to make them work off their time, then the floors need to take steps against these nits, particularly not allowing them any comps, and in some cases picking them up anytime they are abusing the rules regardless of how long they've been gone.

al

[benfranklin]

One problem is that it unfairly treats the 3rd man differently, just because the first 2 are being inconsiderate. I have never understood letting the first 2 guys take off for hours at a time when there is a waiting list. (Of course, in the hyper world of online poker, I think that letting someone sit out for 25 hands before yanking them is way too soft. If you miss your blinds twice online, you should be gone.)

Long absences are bad for waiting players, bad for the house (the waiting players think the house is incompetent, plus potential lost rake due to short pots), bad for dealer tips, and bad for those at the table who think that more players equals more dead money. Again, online I really resent people who sit out a long time when another live one could be in that seat.

I see no rational for letting someone tie up a seat for an hour or more. If someone plays for 3-4 hours and wants to take a meal break, make it a standard practice that he leaves the game and goes to the top of the list when he comes back. If everyone is aware of the rules, there should be no gripes about someone coming back and going to the head of the wait list. Otherwise, half an hour is long enough to go grab a sandwich. Make the rule that if a seat is empty when a dealer starts his down, it gets picked up at the end of the down. This would be equitable for all, giving the 3rd man walking the same treatment as the first.

[youtalkfunny]

You'd have to hire someone fulltime whose sole responsibility is pick-ups. And the more pickups you do, the more likely it is that one will get disputed, or screwed up, or some scammer will try to claim a stack of chips that isn't his, or some other non-sense.

[10-20Jerome]

A littile of subject here but I dont mind people playing over me when Im at dinner.

[midas]

ACJ

The last time I played at the Bellagio (4-8) there were two local retired rocks who would play one hand leave for an hr come back then do it again and again. Over 4 hrs they played about ten hands. I complained to the floor and they did nothing. Never been back to the Bellagio (for poker).

Mandalay Bay bound 9/29 - 10/2

[Bukem_]

[ QUOTE ]
One of the biggest problems in vegas seems to be people abusing the rule to continually go away for an hour at a time while playing 5-10 hands when they finally come back before they take off yet again. So you basically can never get lunch or dinner and keep your seat because you always end up as the 3rd man walking since two local nits are always gone from your table. The rule ends up penalizing the tourists while letting the locals keep their seat forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I was playing at a table where one guy had been playing 24 hours straight and wanted to get dinner, but coudln't.

But they other guys who were up had been at the table a total of 5 hours combined, and maybe played 25-30 hands inbetween the two of them in this time.

Floor refused to make an exception for him.(This was reno hilton around wpt time, not foxwoods)

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]


The last time I played at the Bellagio (4-8) there were two local retired rocks who would play one hand leave for an hr come back then do it again and again. Over 4 hrs they played about ten hands. I complained to the floor and they did nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I apparently don't know enough about LV poker to understand why the locals do this. Are they earning comps while "sitting" at the table? Why would the casino want them there, unless they are leaking big time at craps or 21 while they are gone? Are they trying to keep the seat for when the game gets good later in the evening? If they are locals, they are obviously not whales on a junket.

[anduril]

[ QUOTE ]
can u explain the rule please?

[/ QUOTE ]

at Foxwoods the rule is that if you leave the table, the next dealer puts an absent button in front of your chips. If you're still not back and another dealer comes, you get a second button. When the third dealer comes if you're not there they pick you up. If you're the third person to get up the dealer informs you you have 10 minutes to return to your seat or else you'll be picked up. Plenty of time to go to the bathroom or go get something to eat and bring it back to the table. Like I said in the Wynn post and to agree with Joe, better to keep the bad players (whether local or not) happy. Bad players don't like to play shorthanded and if the table breaks it's a giant pain in the ass to get onto another one.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Joe:

I've never been to Foxwoods and I think you miss my point. My understanding is that at Foxwoods the poker is very seperated from the rest of the casino, so that might be why the "third man rule" works there. But in the major Las Vegas casinos it's my opinion that poker room management is just asking to have major friction with other areas of the casino if they enforce this rule.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Al:

It can be even worse if that tourist happens to be some sort of very high roller out in the casino. Now he complains to his host who passes the complaint up to top management who now will have a major problem with the poker room and the management of the poker room.

Notice that in many locations this sort of thing just can't happen. But it can easily happen at some of the billion dollar mega-resorts here in Las Vegas.

Best wishes,
Mason

[PhatCasino]

i have seen a design for a new poker table where firstly.. you play standing up - so you can always walk in place.. so everyone will be walking.. hmmmmm wait a minute

[slavic]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Al:

It can be even worse if that tourist happens to be some sort of very high roller out in the casino. Now he complains to his host who passes the complaint up to top management who now will have a major problem with the poker room and the management of the poker room.

Notice that in many locations this sort of thing just can't happen. But it can easily happen at some of the billion dollar mega-resorts here in Las Vegas.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason -

The players that "Gambol" at that level are not playing in the games that are going to get called back are they? It would seem that 3rd man walking would work much better in the lowstakes were your typical nit always complains about empty seats, and should be relaxed in the upper mids and above.

or so it seems to me.

-Dan

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi slavic:

Why? Suppose some high roller watched a little poker on TV. He then comes to the cardroom to try it out. Why would he pick a high limit game. He'll probably sit down in whatever is open.

Best wishes,
Mason

[slavic]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi slavic:

Why? Suppose some high roller watched a little poker on TV. He then comes to the cardroom to try it out. Why would he pick a high limit game. He'll probably sit down in whatever is open.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason -

Forgive my misconceptions of the Wynn, but I thought the general clientel that was being attracted to the casino was a group that liked action at a "higher" level. This would tend to make me think that playing in a lower betting range would have little interest with them.

I make my home in Seattle and certainly when we get the "higher" player who wants to experement, they always want to raise the stakes. If the poker room isn't drawing this style of clientel then it may be doomed anyway.

Thanks,
Dan

[Bremen]

[ QUOTE ]
Why? Suppose some high roller watched a little poker on TV. He then comes to the cardroom to try it out. Why would he pick a high limit game. He'll probably sit down in whatever is open.

[/ QUOTE ]
So a high roller, used to playing blackjack with black chips at a minimum, is going to sit in a game with white/blue chips?

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why? Suppose some high roller watched a little poker on TV. He then comes to the cardroom to try it out. Why would he pick a high limit game. He'll probably sit down in whatever is open.

[/ QUOTE ]
So a high roller, used to playing blackjack with black chips at a minimum, is going to sit in a game with white/blue chips?

[/ QUOTE ]

They often do. Well a lot more often it is a craps palyer that wants to take a break a sit down. I once saw someone sit down in a 4-8 game and drop a bunch of high denomination chips on the table. He fished for a black one adn got a rack of chips. He played for a whiel and lost about half the rack. He picked up his chips he brough twith him and put them in his pocket and he ahd this half rack that couldn't possibly go in his pocket, so he stood up fomr the table and said, here dealer you can have those and walked away.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Bremen:

Sure he will. This is especially true if the game is no limit. How can he play bigger than that?

By the way, when The Mirage was the place, and I use to play exclusively $20-$40, we would often get this type of person sitting in our game. Part of the reason for this was that there might have been lists on the larger games.

Sometimes, when someone like this showed up, his host would bring him in and they would let him jump the list and make the game 11 handed.

I also remember playing in a $10-$20 game at The Golden Nugget (before they closed their room). In the game was a high roller who had three casino security guards on each side of him (six in all). For some reason he wanted to try out poker, and when he left he threw $500 into the next pot in appreciation for us putting up with him.

Best wishes,
Mason

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Bremen:

Sure he will. This is especially true if the game is no limit. How can he play bigger than that?

By the way, when The Mirage was the place, and I use to play exclusively $20-$40, we would often get this type of person sitting in our game. Part of the reason for this was that there might have been lists on the larger games.

Sometimes, when someone like this showed up, his host would bring him in and they would let him jump the list and make the game 11 handed.

I also remember playing in a $10-$20 game at The Golden Nugget (before they closed their room). In the game was a high roller who had three casino security guards on each side of him (six in all). For some reason he wanted to try out poker, and when he left he threw $500 into the next pot in appreciation for us putting up with him.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you win it?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi Bremen:

Sure he will. This is especially true if the game is no limit. How can he play bigger than that?

By the way, when The Mirage was the place, and I use to play exclusively $20-$40, we would often get this type of person sitting in our game. Part of the reason for this was that there might have been lists on the larger games.

Sometimes, when someone like this showed up, his host would bring him in and they would let him jump the list and make the game 11 handed.

I also remember playing in a $10-$20 game at The Golden Nugget (before they closed their room). In the game was a high roller who had three casino security guards on each side of him (six in all). For some reason he wanted to try out poker, and when he left he threw $500 into the next pot in appreciation for us putting up with him.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you win it?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was folded the the button who raised and stole the blinds. The BB had AQ but, in the true spirit of Vegas-tards, knew he was beat.

[midas]

Mason:

The FW poker room is basically in the same location as every other poker room in a casino - in the back of the house next to the sports/racebook. Unless you know where you're going and where to park, you have to walk past all the other casino games to play poker. The only reason it may seem very separated is that it is so large, it dominates this area of the casino.

[MaxPower]

Anything that makes the Wynn more like Foxwoods cannot be good thing.

I hate that third man walking rule. I don't go to the casino to be told when I can and cannot go to the bathroom.

Every other poker room does not have this rule and there is gernally not a big problem with games going short and breaking.

Maybe it is different at off-peak times. Hard for me to say, since I usually only play at peak times.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

In my room, there are often high limit pit players who come in to play a little poker, and they aren't usually that concerned with the fact we don't spread high limit poker. They just sit down and play whatever, usually blowing off a few hundred at no limit. They're usually fishy, there to have fun, and don't care one bit about the tiny amount of money (to them) that they're losing.

These guys need to have a good experience in the poker room. Forcing them not to take a break because of third man walking would be a major mistake. Pissing them off for any reason might cause them to take their high limit pit play elsewhere, which would be disastrous for the casino, and even more disastrous for the poker room if management got wind of why the guy was taking his money elsewhere.

al

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

Every other poker room does not have this rule

[/ QUOTE ]

Canterbury has this rule. I believe the 3rd man has 10 minutes.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
someone plays for 3-4 hours and wants to take a meal break, make it a standard practice that he leaves the game and goes to the top of the list when he comes back.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the rule in one east coast room I used to play in, and I loved it. It seemed to work great, no one ever complained much, and everyone seemed happy to both utilize and accomodate the rule.

al

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate that third man walking rule. I don't go to the casino to be told when I can and cannot go to the bathroom.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't fcuk with MaxPower.

[midas]

Max-

When I'm playing at Foxwoods at peak time and there are 50+ people waiting on the board, whose sole poker education is what they learned from watching t.v.. Forgive me if I don't want to play seven handed when there's dumb money waiting on deck.

BTW, the rule at FW is 15 minutes and they won't pick you up until a 1/2 hr. If it takes you that long for a bathroom break - see a doctor.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
Max-

When I'm playing at Foxwoods at peak time and there are 50+ people waiting on the board, whose sole poker education is what they learned from watching t.v.. Forgive me if I don't want to play seven handed when there's dumb money waiting on deck.

BTW, the rule at FW is 15 minutes and they won't pick you up until a 1/2 hr. If it takes you that long for a bathroom break - see a doctor.

[/ QUOTE ]


I really believe that having the 3rd man walking rule actually causes people to walk from the game.

[pc in NM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
someone plays for 3-4 hours and wants to take a meal break, make it a standard practice that he leaves the game and goes to the top of the list when he comes back.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the rule in one east coast room I used to play in, and I loved it. It seemed to work great, no one ever complained much, and everyone seemed happy to both utilize and accomodate the rule.

al

[/ QUOTE ]
I play at two casinos in New mexico. At Sandia, they have the rule, and I've seldom seen it cause a problem - when two seats are empty, a player waits till the blinds pass, and then goes to the john or whatever; they always get back with time to spare.

Last time I was there, a player came to the table, left his chips, and walked; two were already gone; he was picked up after two circuits; when he returned 45 minutes later, he was pissed. BTW, both other players gone returned after 55 minutes, picked up their chips, and left. I have no empathy for these guys - they're occupying seats that others are waiting for and the effect of their absences is only negative....

At Inn of the Mountain Gods, there is no rule, and I've often been at tables where the games broke because of so many extended absences; twice this has happened when there was a waiting list!!

I guess casinos that are catering to lots of high rollers like those in vegas have business considerations that will take precedence over smooth operation of poker games. But, in the places I play, I've only seen positive effects from the rule....

[Quicksilvre]

Binion's used to have this rule, back in its Dark Ages (circa 2003). I don't know if it kept the rule in the Harrah's era.

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't go to the casino to be told when I can and cannot go to the bathroom.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a problem with any casino employee telling guests what they "cannot" do, or what they "must" do.

"You can't go yet," is a terrible thing to tell a guest. Tell the same person, "You should know that you would be the 3PW, and you could lose your seat if you're not back in XX minutes."

Or when players who want to go eat ask me, "Do I have to play one hand with the next dealer?" My reply would be, "I'll never tell you that you 'have to' do anything." Then I would explain their options.

I would never tell Max that he CANNOT go to the bathroom, or that he MUST post a blind. Hell, I won't even tell him that he MUST play in turn--but I might remind him that it's important, if he needed such a reminder.

[Joe Tall]

My understanding is that at Foxwoods the poker is very seperated from the rest of the casino, so that might be why the "third man rule" works there

It is separated form the main casino for the most part. Last year the management got smart and put a dozen tables that they primarily use of tournaments and satellites out in high traffic area where many people can see the games.

But in the major Las Vegas casinos it's my opinion that poker room management is just asking to have major friction with other areas of the casino if they enforce this rule.

I feel this must be a Foxwoods specific situation as the demand for all the table games is so high that the tables are 5 deep on the weekends at the $25 min.

I am willing to say that in all my years since Foxwoods opened, I have never seen a table game where there was just a dealer standing there. In fact, when I first saw that in Vegas, I thought it was odd that the table was open and no one is playing as Foxwoods was what I had been used to.

[Lestat]

You might be correct, but now you are getting into the sticky situation where the whales appear they are being held to different standards than other poker players.

It's been my observation that the people most put off with playing in a short-handed game are the poorer players anyway. They are the ones most likely to leave a game because too many people are walking. So I think a 3rd man walking rule (as long as it's applied to everyone equally), is usually a good thing and not detrimental.