About raising when it's suited and limping when it's not...

[JTG51]

There have been a lot of debates about KQ and AJ from EP lately. I notice lots of people say, "If it's suited I'll raise, if it's offsuit I'll limp." I know lots of non 2+2ers who say the same thing.

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'll insert the disclaimer here that I raise both hands suited or non most of the time. I'm not really interested in discussing that though.

What I want to talk about is, why would being suited make you more likely to raise? If I was going to base my decision on suitedness, I'd be more likely to limp with the suited version and raise the non suited version. Limping UTG tends to make a multiway pot, while raising tends to make a shorthanded pot. AJo and KQo would prefer a shorthanded pot while AJs and KQs don't mind a multiway pot. It seems to me that if you are going to raise one but not the other, it would be the hand that likes to play short handed.

Can someone explain the logic of doing things the opposite way?

[Homer]

"Can someone explain the logic of doing things the opposite way?"

Nope, I agree with you....and I *think* HPFAP does as well.

-- Homer

[Louie]

I think your are right, but for the following additional reason: Trouble hands in bad position tend to have bad implied odds: basically you often get to the river not knowing whether you have the best hand or not. Suited hands tend to improve ones implied odds, since making the flush almost always yields additional bets.

Hands that have bad implied odds but are still worth a call should tend to be raised, since the increased size of the pot and the reduced # opponents tend to reduce the affects of (both good and bad) implied odds. Hands with good implied odds that are worth a call should give more consideration to just calling instead of raising, since calling tends to increase the affects of (both good and bad) implied odds.

These implied odds considerations are most pronounced at the point of your first decision (when the pot is small). Other decisions (when the pot is meduium or large) then the normal progression of FOLD(with a bad hand), CALL(with a marginal hand), and BET/RAISE(with a favorite) tends to dominate your decision making calculations.

- Louie

[sucka]

I completely agree with you. In fact, this was part of the discussion in the "Lee Jones" thread.

An UTG limp is inviting a family pot. Not what you want with this holding.

[JTG51]

In fact, this was part of the discussion in the "Lee Jones" thread.

My appologies if I'm rehashing old stuff here. I didn't read most of the Lee Jones thread since I thought it was just a "Should I play KQ or not" discussion.

[JTG51]

....and I *think* HPFAP does as well.

How disapointing. I thought I came up with the idea myself, HPFAP must have planted the seed for me. I think it's time for me to do a re-reading.

[davidross]

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are not necessarily the opinions of the author. They are presented as a possible explanation.

I say this because I agree with you for the most part. I raise with either if I’m playing. If I do limp it is occasionally with the suited hands because they handle multi-way pots better and I like to limp with small pairs and playing the big suited connectors the same way gives me more cover on those hands.

But, I think you can make an argument in favour of limping unsuited and raising suited. When I play AJo for example. If I raise and get called outside of the blinds I am dreading the rest of the hand. I can think of very few hands I will be ahead of, and I don’t know what kind of a flop I want to see. An A will leave me worried about my kicker, and a J needs to be top pair. So unless you think you have a good chance to steal the blinds raising the unsuited hands might not be a good idea. In most average low limit games I believe this condition exists, so maybe limping cheaply, hoping to hit is the way to play it. Conversely the suited cards have so much more value you raise to build the pot and if you hit get paid off big.

So I think the Poker 101 explanation is to limp unsuited and raise suited, I know that’s how I started. Against better opposition I think you have to raise the big unsuited’s.

[AceHigh]

"Can someone explain the logic of doing things the opposite way?"

In a loose game you would be more inclined to raise with suited cards, because you are going to be getting an extra x% of wins/$$$ from the suitedness.

Just as you would be more inclined to raise on the button many limpers if you had AJs than AJo.