nut flush draw + pair, nasty spot, your move?

[djoyce003]

Allright, I still feel lost in these type spots. Both Villains are like 55/28.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG ($10.65)
MP ($172.10)
CO ($99.95)
Button ($230)
Hero ($186.40)
BB ($227.85)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, Hero (poster) completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $6</font>, MP calls $6, CO calls $6, Button folds, Hero calls $6.

BB raise here is pretty standard one for him, he's been raising to $7 or $8 all night....game is playing much closer to a 1/2 instead of a .5/1.

Flop: ($29) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $15</font>, Hero ???

CO and BB are very aggro....if I raise I could get called in two places. I'm not positive i'm behind here, but I could be...thoughts?

[fimbulwinter]

lead at that flop and hope for a raise. as played, c/c is safest if BB checkraises sets, which is probably the case given your reads.

fim

You are behind, treat it as a big draw, worst case is a set or AQ, if its something like KQ, then you have any A,J or club. If he has a set, its just a flush draw, but sets tend to play a little slower when they have to lead the flop. I dont like these situations either because he will probably lead the turn out with a stronger bet, so you could only be drawing to 1 card if he pushes on the turn. Nothing wrong with folding and waiting for a better situation, or calling. AQ is my guess, but this is a bad hand if an A comes on the turn, so be careful.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
lead at that flop and hope for a raise. as played, c/c is safest if BB checkraises sets, which is probably the case given your reads.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is good

Usually I will lead that flop and then call a decent sized turn bet (1/2 - 3/4 pot) but only with the Nut Flush, if I don't have the Ace (say KJ) then I'm folding to a turn bet.

My question is what if the turn bet does not give you the odds to draw? What if it's potsized bet? Now the math tells me that I'm not good... and I'm not an "implied odds" pro, so I generally fold. (Which I'm not sure is wrong or right.)

[DWarrior]

I generally try to buy two cards because, as you said, the turn bets rarely give you the odds to chase, and implied odds are really crappy on flush draws.

If the pot is $60 on that turn, a $40 bet will mean that you'll need to get all his chips on the river if your play is to be profitable, which is an unrealistic expectation (call-call, river clubs, all-in...that's a pretty dead giveaway).

I'd bet around $20 in this spot, and if the BB is a typical moron, he'll make a minimum raise, which I'll call and expect check-check on the turn.

I've also lost $600 in 2 weeks after I moved up to .5/1, so I may be mistaking.

[djoyce003]

I considered a checkraise all in here, but I only wanted to do that against one opponent...I didn't want my checkraise all in to be in a potential multiway pot. I really wanted BB to lead the flop, and CO to fold...then i was going to checkraise all in because I was pretty sure I had BB beat. When the BB checked and CO bet, I was lost at that point. Relatively scary flop and I didn't want my checkraise to get called in both spots by hands better than mine, although I did have outs.....if they both called and didn't have sets or straights both calling might even be +ev...not sure. In hindsight, I should have led the flop....argh! I hate being OOP.

[Eegs]

Im getting all my money in on this flop...I'd raise to like 50-60 and give him a chance for him to push his money in. but one way or another im getting my money in here.

[Zukeman66]

Am I the only one who plays this super-aggressive on the flop? I bet out the flop, if BB raises me, it will most likely drive out any hand CO is holding except 88 or T9s, which are really the only strong hands he could have given he didn't raise preflop. If CO raises me, I push anyways. In general I play these hands very fast. There are only 4 hands that should call a re-raise all-in by you, and if called, you still have your clubs. You've got to be willing to gamble from time to time IMO. Maybe I've read too much SuperSystem though.