Idiot proof AK from EP (level 1 or 2)

[45suited]

If I see any amount of donkish mini-raising early in a game, this is my AK line from EP. Takes all the guesswork out. No chip spewing, continuation betting OOP. I think this is a good line for the low level guys at least:


Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Ac Kc ]
PokerSpiv folds.
HERO calls [15].
ygtbykt folds.
rboutte raises [30].
ronnyei calls [30].
Sirphatman calls [30].
mlopez30111 folds.
usfdons24 calls [30].
dustydiggler folds.
maverick0077 folds.
HERO is all-In [775]
rboutte folds.
ronnyei folds.
Sirphatman folds.
usfdons24 folds.
HERO does not show cards.
HERO wins 935 chips

If I get called, well, that's okay too. Especially since at an 11 or 22, it's not just PPs that will call - AQ or worse call here with some regularity. I like anything that keeps poker simple and is +EV. (And this line doesn't allow me to screw it up either.) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bennies]

Thanks. Nice to see I'm not alone, I do this too, reraising to 200ish just gets me in trouble on the flop.

[tigerite]

This is I would say standard, 135 in the pot, that's easily enough to pick up here uncontested. It's very close to 20% of your stack.

[Maulik]

Its always fun to see the Ax to AQ calls.

[aaronk56]

[ QUOTE ]
Its always fun to see the Ax to AQ calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

And they call all the time. Also against Ax+, 22+ you're a over a 60% favorite.

[schwza]

i never limp there.

[nWirb]

Vnh, must admit I rarely play AK like this, you have shown me the light.
Thank you sir ^_______^

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
i never limp there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? If there has been alot of mini-raising going on at the table, it seems like a good spot to limp re-raise.

[alexd231232]

I like the play but what if no one raises?, you've lost all the pf +EV you could have gotten had you raised....a risky move but one that works if you are certain that some moron is gonna do a dinky minraise...

[USGrant]

Follow up Q: what's with mini-raisers at Levels 1 & 2? do they have weird psyches, or are they just complete novices?

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the play but what if no one raises?, you've lost all the pf +EV you could have gotten had you raised....a risky move but one that works if you are certain that some moron is gonna do a dinky minraise...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well obviously I want someone to raise, but playing a well disguised suited AK against opponents who likely suck postflop worse than I do is not the worst thing in the world. But if the pot is multi-way and unraised then I don't go apeshit if I hit top pair necessarily.

But as I said, in this SNG, there had already been donkish mini-raising going on quite a bit in the first few hands. This is very common at the lower limits.

[yvesaint]

Also, limp-re-raise smells like AA/KK to most people, so you might get some not-that-donkish players to fold their mid-pockets.

I'm a mini-raiser -- guilty as charged. I really need to stop that. I think it's a novice thing personally.

B.

[camo1131]

What happends if faced with a larger raise behind, like 150-200? Do you call and play OOP or push?

Im guessing push?

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Follow up Q: what's with mini-raisers at Levels 1 & 2? do they have weird psyches, or are they just complete novices?

[/ QUOTE ]

They're just bad players. Say one or two people limp. Some guy with AJ or A8s in the CO will mini-raise (or put in a substantial raise) very often.

This is why if I have AK in EP in level 1, my standard play is to limp. If it doesn't get raised, I'm playing a small pot then. If it does, I'm coming over the top.

Contrast this to the standard play of raising with AK UTG on level one. You've given away the strength of your hand and even the biggest donks are likely folding hands that they would otherwise have raised with.

Then if you get callers, you're stuck playing your hand OOP. Often if an A or K hits, you're not getting any more chips from them anyway (except against AQ-AT).

This way, you get a nice overlay from the hands that you dominate and you completely negate your positional disadvantage. If nobody raises, you play a small pot for 15 chips most likely. But you haven't spewed tons of chips early with AK like many other players do.

Also, I think that this line is much more powerful and scares away many low to mid PPs that I would like to see fold.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
What happends if faced with a larger raise behind, like 150-200? Do you call and play OOP or push?

Im guessing push?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm never just calling for 25% of my stack and playing the hand OOP. Either push or fold, depending on the action and how much overlay is in the pot.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
But if the pot is multi-way and unraised then I don't go apeshit if I hit top pair necessarily.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's what sucks about not raising. the value of AK comes from being in a spot where you can comfortably go apeshit if you flop a pair.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
But if the pot is multi-way and unraised then I don't go apeshit if I hit top pair necessarily.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
that's what sucks about not raising. the value of AK comes from being in a spot where you can comfortably go apeshit if you flop a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but AK on level one from EP is a big trap. You raise and whiff 2/3 of the time. Then you're playing a large pot OOP. When the average donkey loves to mini-raise so much, the limp re-raise seems much better to me at least.

But there's no law that says that every pot that I play with AK has to be a big pot. If it goes unraised and I fold the flop, I don't think that I've given up all that much. (In level 1.)

The problem is that once you raise from EP and the ace hits on the flop, you're usually not stacking somebody anyway. Even a bad player will shut down once the ace hits (unless he has a weaker ace, of course). But the PPs aren't giving you any more money.

So by raising from EP on level one (against bad players), all you're doing is creating a big pot hoping that you will hit top pair when 2/3 of the time you won't hit top pair, and when you do, you're not getting any more chips from them anyway. If you miss, you're stuck playing OOP against players who suck and are hard to bluff with C betting. Yuck.

But mini-raising is so common that I like my line. Hell, even against good players who will put in a real raise, I like my line. To them, my hand might feel like aces or kings. Plus, if they're very good players, I'd rather get my money in pre-flop anyway, since I'd be stuck playing post flop OOP.

[Uppercut]

[ QUOTE ]
Follow up Q: what's with mini-raisers at Levels 1 & 2? do they have weird psyches, or are they just complete novices?

[/ QUOTE ]

What blows me away are the donks who mini-raise from the blinds with ATo and QJo, thus assuring themselves that they will be playing a dominated hand in a raised pot OOP.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that once you raise from EP and the ace hits on the flop, you're usually not stacking somebody anyway. Even a bad player will shut down once the ace hits (unless he has a weaker ace, of course). But the PPs aren't giving you any more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, and those weaker aces stacking off is where a lot of the money comes from. when you raise in EP, what are the odds that another A is dealt? i dunno, reasonably high. at the 11/22 level, how often are they cold-calling? fairly often.

then you have a 1/8.5 shot to stack somebody (well, something may go wrong, so it's probably effectively 1/11ish). that's huge early on. add in similar percentages for Kx.

and there are also the times that 2nd pair loses a lot of money, that a flush draw calls with bad odds, etc. and i think that if the pot is not hugely multiway, you can cbet profitably.

i'm sure you agree that if the pot's not going to get raised, it's better to raise it yourself. the debate is how much better.

the other issue is that you need to have a min raiser and also a bunch of coldcallers. if it gets min-raised and folded back to you, that's not the best. (not horrible, but not the best).

[alexd231232]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Follow up Q: what's with mini-raisers at Levels 1 & 2? do they have weird psyches, or are they just complete novices?

[/ QUOTE ]

They're just bad players. Say one or two people limp. Some guy with AJ or A8s in the CO will mini-raise (or put in a substantial raise) very often.

This is why if I have AK in EP in level 1, my standard play is to limp. If it doesn't get raised, I'm playing a small pot then. If it does, I'm coming over the top.

Contrast this to the standard play of raising with AK UTG on level one. You've given away the strength of your hand and even the biggest donks are likely folding hands that they would otherwise have raised with.


[/ QUOTE ]
The problem i have with this though is that by not raising, you are letting hands like 67s beat you because you let them limp in as well as letting QJ, for examle, raise it u and draw you out on the river. Sure you most likely have the advantage against most hands, but without the raise, you're lettng them come in with anything and since at these low levels and low buy ins there will be alot of donks who will go to the flop with you with things like j8s and 54s because SUITED CONNECTORS RULE, it just seems to lse the edge that AK so often has...what do you think??

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem i have with this though is that by not raising, you are letting hands like 67s beat you because you let them limp in as well as letting QJ, for examle, raise it u and draw you out on the river. Sure you most likely have the advantage against most hands, but without the raise, you're lettng them come in with anything and since at these low levels and low buy ins there will be alot of donks who will go to the flop with you with things like j8s and 54s because SUITED CONNECTORS RULE, it just seems to lse the edge that AK so often has...what do you think??

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if the pot goes unraised and multi-way, I will play a small pot. Not a big deal. But as in the game from the posted hand, often there are mini-raises after an EP limper so I'm able to re-raise.

But to answer your quesion, if the pot is 6 handed and unraised, I'm not going broke even if I flop top pair.

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
i never limp there.

[/ QUOTE ]

[prepotency]

I think your line is interesting and effective in some contexts where the table texture is right. Personally though, I'm almost never all-in w/ AK in levels 1, 2 or even 3. This is because (while the pot is a nice portion of your stack) 100 chip jumps in the early game are not worth risking your tournament life; especially in the low level games. I believe this because, even in low level buy-ins, you are not going to get a caller unless they're KK AA and maybe you *hope* they have JJ TT or AQ. This is my experience at least. Where there are some people who are just dumb and would call this with TT/JJ/AQ, I don't think it would happen often enough to warrant risking your tournament life. That's just my thoughts on it. I would just start out raising and be ready to throw it away on the flop if I don't pair up. AK is not a big money maker lvls 1 and 2.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe this because, even in low level buy-ins, you are not going to get a caller unless they're KK AA and maybe you *hope* they have JJ TT or AQ. This is my experience at least. Where there are some people who are just dumb and would call this with TT/JJ/AQ, I don't think it would happen often enough to warrant risking your tournament life.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they fold JJ/TT and I pick up 120 dead chips, that's a great result.

As for hands other than AA or KK calling, I think you're way off. Weaker aces call with enough regularity to make this play worthwhile.

[Newt_Buggs]

although I personally wouldn't do it in level 2 I think that this line would be okay in a low buy in. In level 1 I think that you're giving up a lot by now raising AKs in EP though.

[DesertCat]

I love this line and play it regularly with AK. But let me play devils advocate. What about reraising to 250-300 in an attempt to get more calls from hands you dominate or are favored over? Or do you lose more to the mid pockets than you gain from AQ/AJ/KQ?

[jgunnip]

This is standard for me at the 22s.