Teaching a SNG "class." How do these topics look?

[zac777]

I've been kicking around the idea of a SNG class with a few of my friends for a while, and I've decided to go ahead with it. I think it will give me a chance to solidify my understanding of the game and give them a chance to improve and possibly pick up a nice side income.

The "students" will be 3-5 players of varying levels, from almost pure beginner to winning 30+3 player. Here is the outline I've come up with so far, but I'd love to hear any suggestions, especially from people just starting out (what you'd want to see if you were taking a class like this) and others who have coached/taught before.

Assumptions about the student
- Knows the ranks of hands and rules of the game
- Has at least $300 of disposable income (skipping the 5s)
- Has a desire to learn and make money (without this I don't think the class is worth teaching)
- Anything else?

Lesson One - Before the cards are dealt
- Variance
- Bankroll
- The long term and +EV decisions
- Psychology (bad beats, staying calm, etc)
- Payout structure (Should I save this for a later section?)

The fundamentals
- Early game (Tight/take advantage of opponents' mistakes)
- Late game (Blind to stack ratio and aggression, opening vs. calling all in)

Basic topics
- Position
- Pot odds and drawing
- The 5-10 rule for pocket pairs
- The 10x rule for raising all-in
- This section could use a couple more items I think

Starting hand selection

A road map by blind level
- I want to give them a solid base to play from when they run into something they're not familiar with. They will eventually be required to think through the plays they're making.

Sample game Not sure what I want to do here. These are the options:

a) I play a 10+1 and explain my reasoning as I go along
b) I have the them play a 10+1 as a team, with my input
c) I show them a recorded game that I know has a good mix early/mid/late game play
d) I have them all start games simultaneously and I answer questions when they have them

Basically I want to get them comfotable with the structure of the party SNGs as fast as possible

-- Possible break here, maybe call this the end of class 1? --

Possible "homework"
- Play X SNGs this week and report back
- In your next SNG, write down 3 hands that you were unsure about and post them on 2+2
- Trade hand histories with one of the other students and analyze each other's play

Intermediate topics
- Value betting vs. inducing bluffs
- Implied odds
- The gap concept (hopefully they have an idea of this from the earlier topics)
- Fold equity and the importance of maintaining it
- Classifying opponents and note-taking

Advanced topics
- Some very aggressive late game plays
- ICM analysis
- Table and seat selection (I call it advanced because they won't need it for a while)

The road to bigger and better things
- Metrics (ROI and ITM)
- Sample size
- Moving up
- Adding tables

Tools
- Poker Tracker
- Playerview
- SNG power tools
- Pokerstove
- Hand history replayer

Books
- Theory of Poker
- Harrington 1 & 2
- Any others?

2+2 Posts
- FAQ
- The Shadow's compilation

So there it is. I think it should be a blast to watch them improve and (hopefully) start climbing the SNG ladder. Of course there are a million other things for them to learn, but I mainly want to start them off as winning players and give them all the tools to improve their game for themselves. I'm probably missing important topics and/or presenting things out of order, so I'd love to hear any input, whether it's about a particular section, an overall opinion, or both.

Zac

[nate_king1]

All this stuff I anybody can learn just on 2+2 forums... If I was taking a class on SNGs I would want to learn advance topics from professionals. Probably would want to watch how they play...

I would probably pay money to see professionals grind out the 55s and up.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
All this stuff I anybody can learn just on 2+2 forums...

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree in principle, but...

It takes a certain kind of personality to not mind wading through mountains of chitchat, "humor", dubious advice, and all the rest of the not-so-great stuff on internet forums to find all the good stuff that is indeed there.

I would venture to say most people would rather have even a semi-systematic presentation, rather than a jumble of a billion posts to decipher.

eastbay

[vabogee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All this stuff I anybody can learn just on 2+2 forums...

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree in principle, but...

It takes a certain kind of personality to not mind wading through mountains of chitchat, "humor", dubious advice, and all the rest of the not-so-great stuff on internet forums to find all the good stuff that is indeed there.

I would venture to say most people would rather have even a semi-systematic presentation, rather than a jumble of a billion posts to decipher.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. i would've taken this class before i did all of the above.

[nate_king1]

[ QUOTE ]

I would venture to say most people would rather have even a semi-systematic presentation, rather than a jumble of a billion posts to decipher.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ] But Would you pay for this sng class?

I'd rather pay to watch people like Raptor, or ZeeJustin grind the higher level SNGs... I would probably pick up a lot more..

But would you pay

[ewing55]

Wow, eastbay, great idea. Maybe you should do some lessons. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

---------Jeff

PS. Just some friendly ribbing!

[Shilly]

I don't think he's charging anything.

P.S. -- I think this is a great idea.

[nate_king1]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think he's charging anything.

P.S. -- I think this is a great idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not charging!!! I'll sign-up...PM if you offer this class in Nor CAL.

[zac777]

I'm trying to tailor the class to my audience.. I don't think the watching me play my usual level would help as much as going over the basics and getting them started on the right foot. I agree that someone who's already comfortable with poker/SNGs would benefit more from what you describe.

Also, I'm definitely not accepting any payment for this other than a beer or two when/if they move up to the 22's.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I would venture to say most people would rather have even a semi-systematic presentation, rather than a jumble of a billion posts to decipher.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ] But Would you pay for this sng class?


[/ QUOTE ]

No, but I'm not the target audience for this guy at all.

It also happens not to fit my personality or learning style. I'm the guy who never went to class in college, and taught himself everything from the textbook. That's just how I learn. Sitting through a lecture is torture to me. From my short stint as a teacher, I learned most people aren't like me at all in the way that they learn best. They'd rather have the structured presentation rather than a pile of reference material, some relevant, some not.

eastbay

I think things look good. Was your post written in chronological order from top to bottom? If so, I'd probably do the playing after the intermediate information.

I really like d) in the sample game section. Maybe have a couple playing and asking questions when necessary, and other students providing possible answers, with your advice and/or kudos to follow. Probably having the student with the least skills playing would help everyone the most (with the intermediate and advanced players getting more used to analyzing the whole table and table "atmosphere")

I also really like the trading hand histories idea. This, if nothing else, will get them thinking about the game without the emotions attached. Rather than being generally pissed off about a hand one should've won and not wanting to "relive the suckout" on his/her own, the other student may see the history and see the clear mistake made by the fellow student (ex.-not raising enough or at all preflop).

The books you have chosen are perfect. As I was reading, I was thinking your class reference book should be HOH 1&2.

Aother basic topic could be stack sizes and how they impact your decisions. This is very important, and I don't think enough players in SNGs really understand this. This could be taught in conjunction with the stages of the tourney. Oh I see you have it in the late section.... it is more important late, but you know what I mean.

I mentioned atmosphere earlier in passing, but I think this is important. This can be involved with psychology and classification of players. Classification is obviously vital, and I'm sure you'll spend plenty of time on this.

Your schedule looks great and I would suggest listing these points on a piece of paper for the class and not adhering to a schedule and checking next to the topics when covered (knowing you can always go back to it, but at least have initially gone over it). This allows for the interaction of student/teacher to flow easily and at a natural pace.

About the student... this is probably obvious, but it must be a good person who, like you said, wants to learn and has a passion for this. Jerks will really mess things up and the good students can suffer.

Just as an aside, you might want to include some advice on playing conditions, like no tv around, comfortable place to play, not talking on the phone, having plenty of water nearby, low noise, etc.

I think it's a great thing you are doing, and wish you well.

aura

[zac777]

That was a great reply, thanks.

The topics are listed in the order I planned to cover them, but I think this is perfect:

[ QUOTE ]
listing these points on a piece of paper for the class and not adhering to a schedule and checking next to the topics when covered (knowing you can always go back to it, but at least have initially gone over it).

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no danger of having any jerks messing things up. The people in the class will all be friends of mine (and I tend to avoid the jerks). I know their personalities and have at least some idea of their preferred learning style, so I don't think there will be any issues here.

One point I wasn't clear on: When you mention atmosphere, do you mean the general style of the table? (i.e. adjusting to a loose aggressive 10+1 game where everyone is raising/calling all-in with marginal holdings) I assume that's what you meant, but if you had something else in mind , please correct me.

Zac

[SlackerMcFly]

[ QUOTE ]
I would venture to say most people would rather have even a semi-systematic presentation, rather than a jumble of a billion posts to decipher.

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of the learning is knowing how and when to sift the B.S. from the PhD.

Learning (like poker) is supposed to be fun. Part of the learning is the fun, part of the fun is in these forums and others like it.

Strike that. There are no other forums like this one.

Learning to prosper in the environment of (name the sport/pastime) requires knowledge of the vernacular, culture and customs.

Taking the time to particpate in, contribute to and learn from these types of opportunities is all part of the fun. At the very least, this forum should be required reading as part of the course.

SlaMcFla

[Ogre]

fold preflop

[smoore]

grr. putting more educated players in my 10's? BAD!

j/k... you sound like a good friend to these people. I like your ideas. I think the best "real world" experience would be:

1) Recorded games you have memorized so you can answer questions on the fly, "Why did he do that? What could he have done differently?" etc.

followed by:

2) the other poster's suggestion of having the inexperienced players play a couple and have the other people collaberate with them.

[zac777]

This forum will definitely be required reading, and I will also encourage them post/reply to hands.

Repeat after me class: "holla."

I don't know if this forum is part of the 'fun' for everyone though, so in the end it's up to them to decide how much they want to participate.

[zac777]

Interesting idea to have the game memorized - I hadn't thought of that. I think that's a great idea, or to at least take notes on the tricky/strange hands so that I'm prepared to answer most of their possible questions. Thanks.

[Slim Pickens]

I would put the gap concept up front. It's too important not to cover in lesson one. Also, it will stick with your students better if it's introduced first, before you teach the pieces that fit into it, rather than after you've taught the sub-concenpts. Just a though... this looks like a good idea.

You're welcome. I admire what you are doing and would love to do the same when I get good enough. Heh heh. Sounds like a great student body as well.

[ QUOTE ]
When you mention atmosphere, do you mean the general style of the table? (i.e. adjusting to a loose aggressive 10+1 game where everyone is raising/calling all-in with marginal holdings) I assume that's what you meant, but if you had something else in mind , please correct me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Tight/loose tables require different mindsets, and it's important to notice how the tight players are adjusting (or not adjusting) to the table. Same for the loose players on the tight tables.

Having a gauge on who's who on the table is crucial.... and reactions can be devastaing if, let's say the table is super loose aggressive and you go all in on a preflop raiser with 1010 because it surely will win. Oops... didn't notice that this guy had only played one hand all night (showing AQs) and is actually tight as a drum and had AA.

That might be a crappy example, but you know what I mean. In this example I was affected by the atmosphere of the table and I reacted improperly to it.

aura

[zac777]

Good idea. I'm actually tempted to lead off with an analysis of a situation where you'd much rather push with 32o than call with AJo.

I think that cuts right to the heart of the SNG philosophy, but it might be a bit much right off the bat to barrage them with numbers. It would probably have good shock value though. hmmm... In any case, I think you're right that I need to make the gap concept a centerpiece right away.

[skirtus]

Since you are putting in the work you might as well make some money from it. Sign up as an affiliate. You could get them some first time sign up bonuses and offer them rakeback if you want. Some of these guys may turn into regular earners for you.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would venture to say most people would rather have even a semi-systematic presentation, rather than a jumble of a billion posts to decipher.

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of the learning is knowing how and when to sift the B.S. from the PhD.

Learning (like poker) is supposed to be fun. Part of the learning is the fun, part of the fun is in these forums and others like it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Part of the fun for YOU.

A lot of people would rather gouge their eyes out than spend time nerding it up on an internet forum.

eastbay

[prepotency]

Maybe you have a gift for teaching but I'd venture to say that HOH or hold'em for advanced players has a good chronology for a class on this stuff; at least as far as the basics goes. I would just make it easier on my self and do a required reading type thing where they read a chapter of the book and then you have a little class where you show examples and play hands and explain the material to solidify it. That would really let the info. in the book set in and then you can supplement or expound upon the information as you feel necessary.

[stupidsucker]

I feel like the guy that didnt get the patent.. Oh well I still keep my stuff to myself, and my students are doing better then I am.

[fnord_too]

Some random thoughts:

Advanced topics:
Hand Reading
Controlling pot size
Value of position
When and when not to bluff
HU play at the end vs. various types of opponents

[AA suited]

Add my Simple SnG Guide (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=2598924 &Forum=&Words=guide&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=259 8924&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=10091&daterang e=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bo dyprev=#Post2598924) to the reading list.

it's not a long read...lol

[zac777]

The chronology is one part I'm still trying to iron out. I feel pretty strongly that the first section needs to be about the meta-game, something that's not covered in detail in either ToP or HoH. It might not be a bad idea to have them do some reading first, but I definitely want to squeeze in more than a chapter's worth per class.

What does everyone think of the amount of material covered before they play their first game? I am inclined to get them playing as soon as possible so that they are forced to think and apply what they've learned right away.

Are there any topics that I should cover before their first game that I'm don't have listed?

I think the amount of material before playing is enough. If they really understand these concepts, then they can make money. Applying these concepts is much harder and I agree that having them play as soon as possible is the way to go.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]

What does everyone think of the amount of material covered before they play their first game? I am inclined to get them playing as soon as possible so that they are forced to think and apply what they've learned right away.


[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. I think you need to get some basic strategy into them and have them play 10-20 S&G's quickly. If they have not played any before (I am too lazy to go reread the description of the students) until they have some under their belt to get some frame of reference, they will be hard pressed to even understand what you are telling them. (That is, they will just not be aware of a lot of the mechanics and details enough to really get things IMO.)

I also think it is a good idea to keep the lessons short with mandatory play time between them so they don't get overwhelmed. You are covering a lot of material, and most of it will require time to sink in and playing time to really understand.