I threw up after this one

[1C5]

You fold this right.
Or just tell me how you play this. Probably not like I did. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif


Seat 3: Boomer_1956 (2830)
Seat 6: msugreen (2485)
Seat 9: Hero (2685)
Boomer_1956 posts small blind (100)
msugreen posts big blind (200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ah, Ts ]
Hero raises (800) to 800
Boomer_1956 folds.
msugreen raises (2285) to 2485
msugreen is all-In.
Hero calls (1685)

[Shillx]

This is pure +EV push preflop (up to 15 BB with even stacks and even more with uneven stacks like you have here). No calling strategy can make this a -EV push. Even if they call 22+/AT+ you still come out ahead. And if they call with any other range, you come out even more ahead. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Brad

[ChuckNorris]

I think that is my standard line. Except I'd raise to 600 preflop. Depends on the opponent, of course, but after me bullying the table villains usually are so pissed off that they can come over the top with a lot worse hands than ATo once ITM. Against a real tightie this is a fold though.

Shillx: just because it's +EV to push it preflop, doesn't mean you have to push. Raising less can easily be more +EV. You don't push AA with a 13BB stack even though it's definately a +EV move.

[bigt439]

I raise it to 500 and fold to a reraise. The raise to 500 accomplishes as much as a larger one and you lose less when they push. This is a clear clear fold when they push, you will almost never be ahead and often dominated.

[XXXNoahXXX]

[ QUOTE ]
Shillx: just because it's +EV to push it preflop, doesn't mean you have to push. Raising less can easily be more +EV. You don't push AA with a 13BB stack even though it's definately a +EV move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you, so many people seem to think +EV is +EV, not degrees.

[djj6835]

Are you saying he should have just open pushed? I don't see the problem with just raising here. I'm sure it's +ev to push, but that doesn't mean raising can't be juat as, if not more profitable.

[microbet]

I think pushing is better than raising to 800 and folding. Against most opponents I think raising to 500 and folding to a reraise is fine.

This is very very different though than not pushing AA because you are trapping.

Also, my 3 year old got sick all over the airplane today and has been getting sick all over everything else since then. I just wanted to let you know I really appreciated your choice of title.

[Shillx]

Yeah but I'm not convinceed that raising to 800 and then folding is +EV at all (it is very tough to say what the EV of a 4x raise is and that is part of the reason why I just push). We give up decent winning chances against a pushing range (and a really good player might be pushing light) when we fold to an all-in.

If they come over the top of us 25% of the time, we only win T25 everytime. Not to mention that ATo fares pretty well against the top 12.5% of all hands (according to pokerstove). We will be getting about 3:2 to call all-in, and our hand is only a 57:43 underdog. So raise 4x-folding might actually be the worst play of all.

And to think that only better hands will reraise is foolish. 22+ is probably an insta-push for most players in this spot. If I knew that the guy would raise-fold I would push just about anything.

Brad

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
This is very very different though than not pushing AA because you are trapping.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not THAT different. In both cases you are trying to extract the most value from worse hands. Here there just can be another reason too: by raising 2,5-3BB you allow yourself to escape from better hands, if you think that a reraise indicates one.

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
If they come over the top of us 25% of the time, we only win T25 everytime. Not to mention that ATo fares pretty well against the top 12.5% of all hands (according to pokerstove). We will be getting about 3:2 to call all-in, and our hand is only a 57:43 underdog. So raise 4x-folding might actually be the worst play of all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who says you have to fold to the reraise? And I think that especially at the lower buy-ins the opponents are more prone to call raises preflop than to reraise.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is very very different though than not pushing AA because you are trapping.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not THAT different. In both cases you are trying to extract the most value from worse hands. Here there just can be another reason too: by raising 2,5-3BB you allow yourself to escape from better hands, if you think that a reraise indicates one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you want to extract anything but the blinds with A5. I think the only reason to raise less than allin here is so you can escape. Sure, you will sometimes win more when you get called, but on the whole it will be better when you just get the blinds.

edit: AT, not A5, but still not worth trapping.

[ChuckNorris]

It's AT.

[microbet]

yeah, I got that - too late though.

[microbet]

I really just wanted to an excuse to complain about getting thrown up on (eventhough my wife got much worse than I did).

That's what one of my bad beat posts looks like.

[45suited]

With the odds that you're getting and the range of hands that he can be pushing (not only better aces and JJ+ but also mid PPs), I don't think calling is wrong.

Sometimes you run into a better hand. Stuff happens. But I don't think you made a mistake by calling the push. You were getting the right price against his range.

I will also add the cop-out answer that it is read dependent as well just to cover all my bases. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ChuckNorris]

Well, it's ITM, not bubble, and I think that at least at the 55's villains are often cabable of reraising and calling with bluffs/mediocre hands after getting tired of hero's bullying. Unlike at the bubble, you are not so afraid of getting all-in if you can get more chips that way. This is 100% read dependent.

I think this topic is very interesting, since I know that many great players suggest moving in often with stacks even slightly above 10BB. I certainly don't fancy myself as a better player than Shillx or Adanthar or Curtains (who, if I remember correctly, usually suggest a push with even 12BB or so stacks). I just want to understand.

[microbet]

Big blind only has about 12.5 BBs and AT is too good to fold to a reraise, but not good enough to trap with. Both stacks can just about eliminate you and you don't want to be called by KQ or lot of other hands. I think pushing preflop is probably best.

[Shillx]

I certainly don't fancy myself as a better player than Shillx

This isn't true at all. I'm acutally not very good, but I can leave that for another time.

I play these things just for the push/fold aspect. If I get AKo in Level 1 in the SB, I will sometimes just move all-in because it has value (even more so when you get called by AQ and whatnot). Naturally this is what comes out in my posts. I can proove that pushing is better then folding, so I push. I have no way of knowing what the EV of raising 3x the BB is, so I tend to overlook it (though I don't think it is a great move with shallow stacks).

This is just where I'm coming from, so when I say "push", I really mean "don't fold" since it can't be right.

Brad

[XXXNoahXXX]

I actually probably push here preflop as well, I was just happy that he mentioned that one move, while +EV, isn't necessarily the move with the greatest EV. So you're both right.

[Ixnert]

[ QUOTE ]

If they come over the top of us 25% of the time, we only win T25 everytime.

[/ QUOTE ]

I come over the top of a 600-800 raise here with a lot more than 25% of hands. And don't get called nearly enough to make me stop. (Admittedly, I don't often see situations where I'm ITM with everyone having 12BB+ stacks. But against some opponents, the value of a 4BB raise here is dubious.)

I mean, I don't do it with just anything -- I like to have some showdown value the times when I do get called. But I'd happily come over the top (depending on the opponent) here with 98o or K4s (but not, say, 92o).

[nWirb]

If villian is LAG and you are betting 1/3 of your stack to induce a repush (which you intend to call) I like it.

Otherwise bet 500 or push imho.

[fnord_too]

My standard raise there is 600 and fold to a push. If you are going to raise 800 there, you might as well push because you are going to be getting 2:1 if someone behind you pushes.

The rules for when you get to push are fold mode are based primarily on the odds you will have if it gets pushed behind you by a bigger stack. If you are raising 4BB, then at 13BB you will be getting ~2:1 at 13BB (if it is the BB who pushes, a little less). If you are raising 3BB you will be getting ~1.7:1. My standard raise is 3BB, and if I have 12BB or less, I consider myself pot committed by and large if I raise, so I usually push there unless:

1. My standard raise has dropped (this really only happens in MTTs for me)
2. The table is playing very tight, so I can fold hands comfortably getting 2:1, and stealing light is very profitable.
3. There is some extraordinary situation, like I raise the stack of the small blind and crazy action ensues with one or more people being all in on the bubble.

I will push with 13BB some, too, with hands that I really hate being called with (like TT/JJ), since I really don't want to make difficult post flop decisions this late in an STT.

Sometimes I will make a "standard" raise with 9-12BB if I have a monster to try to encourage action, but if I have less people typically see right through that ploy.

Here with the SB pushing, I think you are getting almost 2.2:1. That is a tough decision, given that you are ITM and the remaining stack sizes. I think a call is ok here, but I would rather raise less or open push in this spot, and my tendency is towards open pushing here (actually, I think I am always open pushing this given the blinds and stacks). I would like to see the cashing ev analysis for calling (and maybe someone has already done that in the thread, wouldn't that be cool?)