109s - AQs Turn Play

[Unarmed]

No reads yet.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t1800)
Button (t790)
SB (t1270)
BB (t1350)
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t270)
MP1 (t940)
MP2 (t1055)
Hero (t1525)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t90</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls t90, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls t60.

Flop: (t315) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP2 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets t75</font>, MP2 folds, Hero calls t75.

Turn: (t465) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero wants to know your plan for the rest of the hand.

[Matt R.]

Are bets that small common at the 109's? I'd assume a middle pair based on the size of the flop bet is pretty likely. Without more information on what his bet size means, I go for a check/raise on the turn. If you lead out he's going to fold his middle pair, yet call if he has a K and you're behind. Check/raising gets more money in the pot when you're ahead, could get him to fold a weak king, and let's you evaluate his bet size before you commit too many chips. If he bets big on the turn, you can let it go. This is all pretty read dependent of course, which is why I'm wondering about the t75 flop bet.

[Newt_Buggs]

This is a tricky situation because your hand still sucks. I would probably check call the turn or if he bets strong enough fold. I really don't like checkraising because you're probably only going to get called when you're behind and likely with tainted outs (KQ,AK,QQ,KK).

I would hate leading out because it will probably cause everything to fold other than a K or set, but at least you cut down on the risk of getting bluffed, and if you do get called you have a nice chance to suckout.

[freemoney]

c/r the flop.

[flytrap]

Why not raise more preflop? At least 120 would be more appropriate. That being said, I would bet the flop, around 2/3 pot, and if I get called by the button, I would slow down. I probably wouldn't bet the turn, as his call on the flop would mean he either has me beat or a big draw. If I get the right price on the turn, I call, if not, I fold.

[Freudian]

I'd check/call. Getting a free card isn't horrible here and I don't have a big problem with letting him define his hand on the turn.

Not that I play the 109s and am used to the shenanigans going on up there.

[Irieguy]

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No reads yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get some. Poker is easier when you know your opponents. You didn't see how the button lost 210 chips in the first dozen hands? This hand plays a lot easier if you knew that.

I would say that a "typical" 109 opponent who has 700 chips and bets 75 into a 300+ chip pot with that board does not have a king. So, you have the best hand on the flop. He could very well have a hand like A-Ts, though, so I like your check-call on the flop.

The turn looks pretty good to me. If you rate to have the best hand, and a spade draw is a likely holding for the button... you wouldn't really want to check here.

I'd bet the turn here and probably call a raise of any size.

Irieguy

[freemoney]

villian isnt defining his hand by betting on the turn if you check to him its often as simple as this guy is checking he doesnt have anything ill bet.

[raptor517]

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I'd bet the turn here and probably call a raise of any size.

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id def bet the turn. u got mucho outs against almost any hand he could have if yer behind, which you may not even be. holla

[Unarmed]

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c/r the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

1/4 pot bet can easily be Ax spade trying to get all-in. You calling a push?

[Unarmed]

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The turn looks pretty good to me. If you rate to have the best hand, and a spade draw is a likely holding for the button... you wouldn't really want to check here.

I'd bet the turn here and probably call a raise of any size.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanks for the reply.

Ok so most of the time Villain has Ax spades, but he may be on a donkley played mid pair. If he has KQ or KJ good for him, we're probably going all in on the turn and I have outs.

Betting is good. However, it probably folds out mid pair, which is bad. My effective stack is 900, and the pot's 465, meaning a decent bet is about 1/3 of my stack. This seems sort of awkward, especially if a spade drops on the river.

So... how about a C/R all-in? If he checks it though I'll check call any river, including a spade. This line allows QJ/QT to bet again on the turn, and allows the draw to make a mistake by calling the push. The risk is the draw checks behind, hits, and I'm forced to call a decent bet on the end as I've shown zero interest in this pot. I don't mind calling the bet though, as if I bet the turn the draw will call and I'll check/fold the river when the spade hits. I lose that bet either way. The big problem with checking the turn is the risk that the draw checks behind and doesn't hit, meaning I've lost the bet he would have called. Now, if he's the type to push the river when he misses and I check to him, this really doesn't matter. I guess a read would help - HAHAHAHAHA

Does any of that make sense?

[Irieguy]

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The turn looks pretty good to me. If you rate to have the best hand, and a spade draw is a likely holding for the button... you wouldn't really want to check here.

I'd bet the turn here and probably call a raise of any size.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanks for the reply.

Ok so most of the time Villain has Ax spades, but he may be on a donkley played mid pair. If he has KQ or KJ good for him, we're probably going all in on the turn and I have outs.

Betting is good. However, it probably folds out mid pair, which is bad. My effective stack is 900, and the pot's 465, meaning a decent bet is about 1/3 of my stack. This seems sort of awkward, especially if a spade drops on the river.

So... how about a C/R all-in? If he checks it though I'll check call any river, including a spade. This line allows QJ/QT to bet again on the turn, and allows the draw to make a mistake by calling the push. The risk is the draw checks behind, hits, and I'm forced to call a decent bet on the end as I've shown zero interest in this pot. I don't mind calling the bet though, as if I bet the turn the draw will call and I'll check/fold the river when the spade hits. I lose that bet either way. The big problem with checking the turn is the risk that the draw checks behind and doesn't hit, meaning I've lost the bet he would have called. Now, if he's the type to push the river when he misses and I check to him, this really doesn't matter. I guess a read would help - HAHAHAHAHA

Does any of that make sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's one of the most well-thought out, cogent, and insightful hand analyses I've ever seen on this forum.

Without a read, I still think that you get a check behind too often because the board is just too scary for a worse queen to get froggy. Likewise, there are so many scary rivers that you aren't likely enough to get moved at when you have the best hand to make it worth it.

I think your line could be perfect against a savy, aggressive player with a tendancy to get reckless against scary boards... but that doesn't describe too many players.

Still, you are thinking about poker on a level that most never will.

Irieguy

[ChrisV]

I hate the play of this hand. I wouldn't raise AQ in this spot, but be that as it may.... why aren't you betting this flop? Having chosen to increase the size of the pot preflop don't you think it would be a good idea to try and win it? What are you going to do if the button makes a saner bet, say 150 or 200?

I'd do different stuff at every opportunity here. I'd limp the hand preflop. Having raised, I'd bet 200 on this flop and give up if raised. Having checked, I'd checkraise this bet a substantial amount, say 300 straight, because it looks like a girly bet to me. If I made it to the turn in your position, I'd checkraise allin. This makes life difficult for flush draws and weak kings. Checkraising the turn here looks like a classic slowplay so it should work nicely.

[pokerlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate the play of this hand. I wouldn't raise AQ in this spot, but be that as it may.... why aren't you betting this flop? Having chosen to increase the size of the pot preflop don't you think it would be a good idea to try and win it? What are you going to do if the button makes a saner bet, say 150 or 200?

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree - i am not crazy about the raise here and IF i did re-raise PF (to t120) i would definetly bet the flop. that said, I feel like the button will bet if I check, and that I could probably get him to laydown with a nice re-raise (since his bet of t75 into a t315 pot screams weak-tight).

therefore, I do that.

[freemoney]

i'd be surprised if villian has Ax of spades more than 10% of time. u checked to him so hes betting. i know that u check so he bets its simpe to oput hm on a rangfe is stupid bc it s and excerisce in futility.

[Irieguy]

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i'd be surprised if villian has Ax of spades more than 10% of time. u checked to him so hes betting. i know that u check so he bets its simpe to oput hm on a rangfe is stupid bc it s and excerisce in futility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, compared to this masterpiece... Unarmed's analysis looks quite silly indeed.

Irieguy

[freemoney]

to say hes on spades make absolutely no sense, every idiot bets when checked to his range is like any 2

I'd probably check/call any reasonable to slightly big bet. If he bets like he had been, you deserve to catch a club on his K if he has one.

[Unarmed]

free, what are you talking about? Yeah forget about hand analysis, his range is any two so lets just C/R the flop. Honestly, I disagree with your thinking, even if drunk.

BTW you're not nearly at the point where you can walk into a thread and type "c/r the flop". If you're going to post your opinion back it up with some logic and actually add something back to this forum. You can disagree with my line but that's not the point. Posts like that are what makes this forum good as they get people thinking. Posts like "c/r the flop", or some drunk bullshit accomplish nothing.

[USGrant]

I don't understand why a PF raise here would not be the best play. I'd probably raise it PF more than the OP. I understand the line of playing conservatively in the early levels, but I think it's overdone by not raising here and not getting more value from a top hand.

[fnord_too]

Odd action. If I got to the turn that way I would...

Ok, I just wiped my first response because I realized villain only has 625 left on the turn. That makes things kinda screwy.

I keep typing things and erasing them. I think my plan is to check raise push the turn, or bet 200 on any river if it gets checkd through. What I do to against a river push will depend on the river.

[Unarmed]

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The turn looks pretty good to me. If you rate to have the best hand, and a spade draw is a likely holding for the button... you wouldn't really want to check here.

I'd bet the turn here and probably call a raise of any size.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanks for the reply.

Ok so most of the time Villain has Ax spades, but he may be on a donkley played mid pair. If he has KQ or KJ good for him, we're probably going all in on the turn and I have outs.

Betting is good. However, it probably folds out mid pair, which is bad. My effective stack is 900, and the pot's 465, meaning a decent bet is about 1/3 of my stack. This seems sort of awkward, especially if a spade drops on the river.

So... how about a C/R all-in? If he checks it though I'll check call any river, including a spade. This line allows QJ/QT to bet again on the turn, and allows the draw to make a mistake by calling the push. The risk is the draw checks behind, hits, and I'm forced to call a decent bet on the end as I've shown zero interest in this pot. I don't mind calling the bet though, as if I bet the turn the draw will call and I'll check/fold the river when the spade hits. I lose that bet either way. The big problem with checking the turn is the risk that the draw checks behind and doesn't hit, meaning I've lost the bet he would have called. Now, if he's the type to push the river when he misses and I check to him, this really doesn't matter. I guess a read would help - HAHAHAHAHA

Does any of that make sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's one of the most well-thought out, cogent, and insightful hand analyses I've ever seen on this forum.


[/ QUOTE ]

It would have read quite a bit better if I hadn't f*cked up the stacks on the turn. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Effective stack is 600, not 900, making this a push or C/R all-in situation I think.

[maddog2030]

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That's one of the most well-thought out, cogent, and insightful hand analyses I've ever seen on this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

This analysis seems pretty standard. But as you hinted at, this has more to do with the quality of the forum in these situations than the quality of the analysis.

[freemoney]

lol i dont care if im not at the level where i can do it, if ur gonna check the fop then c/r the flop screams strength and doesnt get u pot committed it makes it most expensive for him to draw and actaully defines his hand while check/calling does none of that and makes it a guessing game on what he has

[citanul]

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lol i dont care if im not at the level where i can do it, if ur gonna check the fop then c/r the flop screams strength and doesnt get u pot committed it makes it most expensive for him to draw and actaully defines his hand while check/calling does none of that and makes it a guessing game on what he has

[/ QUOTE ]

free, what do yoou do to a push? how often does a push over the bet, checkraise do you think mean a flush?

citanul

[freemoney]

i mean i really dont think many people push back all in with a flush draw b/c they have to assume their FE is pretty low and its not like you automatically win the hand if he does have the flush draw hes still gonna win the pot 35% of the time, but i really think sure its possible he has a flush draw but so are a 100 other hands so if he pushes back with a worse hand then he can have the pot here.

[citanul]

cool. that's entirely reasonable.

[djoyce003]

You are the preflop raiser, you have to bet this flop. You caught a piece of it, and you let the button take control by betting. I would have fired t200 on the flop...see what he does to that. If he calls, I slow down.