76 sooooted flops flush

[SlyAK]

At work so no HH... here are the relavant details.

PPNL 100 game. I am CO with 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and $120.

MP- has $90, BB- easily covers all. I have been at the table for a couple rotations, image should be TAG. Opponent's have done nothing notable/crazy.

2 limpers to me and I limp. SB completes and we see the flop 5-handed.

Flop: K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

It's checked to MP who bets $4, I call the $4, and BB also calls, (everyone else folds). Pot- $17.

Turn: 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif BB checks again, MP bets $7, I raise to $25. BB cold calls. MP folds. Pot-$74

River: J /images/graemlins/spade.gif BB checks. Anyone value bet here? Any thoughts on the rest of the hand. I usually raise the flop, but decided to wait to the turn to mix it up, intending to raise a non-heart.

Sly

[djoyce003]

sure smells like BB has a flush too.

[fuzzbox]

I raise the flop, and I certainly bet the river.

[Finite_Risk]

I might have raised the flop as you really don't want to see another heart here.

My guess is MP had something like KxJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif - top pair with redraws to relatively high flush that were priced out with your raise

I could only see the BB having two hands here - the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif and trying to draw to nuts (without odds mind you)

or a flush. A set? Would have thought he'd be pushing the flop hard.

I'd value bet for half the pot - hope he doesn't have an A /images/graemlins/heart.gif flush, in which case he likely won't raise (something like Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif)

If he pushes - flopped flush over flush??? - flip a coin

[JihadOnTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise the flop, and I certainly bet the river.

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yup

[PhatPots]

I think I would check the river. If BB has a bigger flush he will probably check-raise u all-in. The pot is pretty big and u are getting decent value for ur flush.

BB might also have had the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif but he might have missed. He won't call ur bet, but on the other hand if he does have a bigger flush he will make u pay.

Pots

Damn, with a made small flush and a straight flush draw, you almost need to raise this flop. Here are the reasons: First, and most obviously, it knocks out all players who have 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif through Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif. If you let these players stay in with these marginal hands and see a hearts fall on the turn, you are almost always beaten. Secondly, you will be getting value from the players who are drawing with the A or K /images/graemlins/heart.gif. They will almost certainly pay you off until the turn or river.

But besides the flop mishap, I would most likely bet the river for value.

Actually, come to think of it, a river bet is a very questionable move. Whether there is value in betting this river is debatable. What could villain be cold-calling a bet and a raise to? Possibilities are AK, two pair, A /images/graemlins/heart.gif draw, and a set. But on the other hand, there is a very real possibility he has a higher flush than you. On second thought, I call a bet on the river, but I won't put in a bet, due to questionable value. I guess I would need more information about the BB...

[Yellowbeard]

I check the river. Based on his actions, he either already has the nuts or he was drawing to a higher heart. You either get reraised with a better hand or get a fold. No value.

If he was holding 2 pair or a set, he would/should have raised early to get people off draws.

FWIW, I think your hand is good. BB would have to be a very crafty player indeed to have played it this way with a made flush.

I kind of like him for a straight, actually.

Delaying your raise until the turn netted you (or the BB /images/graemlins/wink.gif ) an extra $7 on this hand from when MP bet out on the turn. (That's the other kind of sklansky bucks).

It's sort of risky, but take a deep breath and bet the river.

[SlyAK]

I really don't feel that the lack of a flop raise is that much of a mistake in this hand. If we put one of the villains on a single high heart there are only 7 hearts left in the deck (1 of which makes me a straight flush). Odds of him improving on one card are relatively slim so I dont mind waiting until the turn to raise here, since a lot of players will still call without odds on the turn.

Another reason why I dont think a raise is necessary is that I wont go broke if a 4th heart hits. Sure I threw a few bucks into the pot, but I am not going to give any action, so villain has no implied odds against me in this hand.

Sly

[imported_anacardo]

If he'll call the turn with a naked heart he'll call the flop with a naked heart. Pot-raise the flop. Pot the turn.

[SlyAK]

What do I do if he re-raises the flop? I dont think I want to go broke here, and this will be putting me to a tough decision that could be Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif or could be something like A /images/graemlins/heart.gif x.... I will have no way to know which and will likely make a big mistake if I raise the flop.

On the turn I dont think many players are aggressive enough to check-raise with the naked Ah, so if I am re-raised I feel that I can safely fold.

Sly

PS. I more often than not do raise this flop, just putting in my case why I think calling is fine too.

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If he'll call the turn with a naked heart he'll call the flop with a naked heart. Pot-raise the flop. Pot the turn.

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Villain is not the only potential source of money here; isn't there an argument to be made for keeping in the other guy for an additional bet or two? That's a rhetorical question; of course there is.

[SlyAK]

I think for a long time on the river and finally check it through. The villain's cold call OOP really scared me on the turn and I thought there was a very high chance of him having a flush also. I thought the other likely hand was A /images/graemlins/heart.gif x .... which wouldn't call a bet from me anyway. At the time a bet seemed -EV.

Villain flips over a very passively played 2nd nuts with Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and my hand is no good.

Sly

[Matt Flynn]

first, i often raise those flops.

second, yes, ABSOLUTELY, value bet that river unless you have some tell of him.

[xcrack999]

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Odds of him improving on one card are relatively slim so I dont mind waiting until the turn to raise here, since a lot of players will still call without odds on the turn.

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Yea, you can wait until the turn to make him call without odds, or you can just raise the flop and make him call two bets without odds. Which one do you think is better?

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Another reason why I dont think a raise is necessary is that I wont go broke if a 4th heart hits. Sure I threw a few bucks into the pot, but I am not going to give any action, so villain has no implied odds against me in this hand.

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So... you didn't raise the flop because you were going for pot-control with a flopped flush? That is VERY weak.