More job advice - salary negotiations

[nothumb]

A few of you may remember a while back I was looking at fighting for a big raise, or walking away from my job.

I found another solution. I will be moving within our department, under the supervision of a different manager (who is still supervised by my current boss). I will be moving into a supervisory role within another residential unit. Sort of like an assistant manager position, basically supervising one end of the shift. This is really exciting for me considering my age and the fact that the salary will exceed the ammount I had requested in my fight for a raise.

So my new supervisor offered me the job at salary 'x'. I get a call today from my current boss telling me he is putting through the paperwork as we speak. I'm supposed to be excited. Then he tells me what he put it through for and it's $1000 less than what I was offered. I balk at it but he tells me firmly that's the price. Then he tells me that's pending the associate executive director, who may need a little 'wiggle room.' The guy is a known penny pincher.

This is a game to these guys. How much can we cut costs? They know I want to move badly and they'll probably try and get me for another 1k before it's over. I know that my new boss (who, despite being supervised by my current boss, holds a lot of sway and is very well respected at the top levels of administration - I think he's been tagged for big things down the road) really wants me in the position and I respect him a lot. I also know that other (albeit far more experienced) staff have turned the job down at my original price.

My thinking is, if they try to slash it anymore, I will make my stand and demand the original price, refusing the move until they give it to me. Thoughts? I am in good standing with all parties involved (so far).

NT

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
Take one of those 20+2's you were going to lose and buy the damn book. Seriously, it's like somebody dropping $100 at 3-6 then saying, "If I buy a poker book, I won't have any money to play with." Get over it, buy the thing.

That book is very good, by the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

-The Dude (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=1946655&Fo rum=f20&Words=raise&Searchpage=0&Limit=255&Main=19 46655&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=8377&daterang e=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bo dyprev=#Post1946655)

[Mason Hellmuth]

Accept the $1000 decrease, but stand firm. Make it clear that it's the minimum you'll accept to make the move. This shows that you're willing to work with them, and it's a good compromise between demanding the original amount and letting them jerk you around even more. It sounds like this is still more money than the raise you asked for, so you're not giving up too much.

(I'm graduating in a week and I don't have a job yet. Take my advice for what it's worth. If my play here is terrible, please explain why.)

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Take one of those 20+2's you were going to lose and buy the damn book. Seriously, it's like somebody dropping $100 at 3-6 then saying, "If I buy a poker book, I won't have any money to play with." Get over it, buy the thing.

That book is very good, by the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

-The Dude (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=1946655&Fo rum=f20&Words=raise&Searchpage=0&Limit=255&Main=19 46655&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=8377&daterang e=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bo dyprev=#Post1946655)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks wacki. I knew you would remember that. Since I didn't make it to class, wanna give me the Cliff's Notes?

NT

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]

Thanks wacki. I knew you would remember that. Since I didn't make it to class, wanna give me the Cliff's Notes?

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy cow nothumb. The book is $3.50 on amazon. Linky (http://www.bestwebbuys.com/Getting_to_Yes-ISBN_0140065342.html?isrc=b-search) And free at the library.
You can even get an audio book for $10. That would allow you to learn the material without damaging your precious little thumbs flipping those dangerous sheets of paper. You could finish it in 1 single night. We are talking about a raise for crying out loud. Plus it will help you in countless other situations.

Hey, can you give me the cliff notes on SSH?

Seriously man, what the [censored] is wrong with you?

Holy cow, I seriously want to beat you right now.

[nothumb]

No, I'm willing to buy it, I just think I'll probably be having it out with this guy tomorrow anyway.

And I was also just giving you crap for being such a nit when it comes to posts I made six months ago.

What do you think of my plan? I think it'll work.

NT

[nothumb]

there, i ordered the book anyway.

NT

[wacki]

First off, I think nit is the most massively misused word in this forum. Does anyone here that uses the word actually know what it means?

Here, let me help you (http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/?a_id=12395&m_id=26)

Secondly, your plan may or may not work. It's all about the execution. If you read that [censored] book like I told you to then you wouldn't need any advice. Hell, you may not even be in this situation in the first place. Instead 6 months later your dealing with the situation like an ignorant crack smoking bastard. You're getting shafted, you know your getting shafted and you won't do the research or even listen to an audio tape. You've had 6 months to think about this. How can you be so street smart and so dumb at the same time?

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
there, i ordered the book anyway.

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

Finally, now lets hope it doesn't decompose before you break in the binding.

[The Yugoslavian]

You should get x.

If it was clearly stated then there really shouldn't be *any* discussion.

Frankly, I don't think you should allow the price to come down at all from whatever that figure was.

I wouldn't want to work for someone who offered me a certain amount and changed or allowed it to be changed.

Oh, and not that you've told them that you'd accept less money...but *never* mention that you would. In fact, even if in your mind you are ok with $1k less, I think you should at the very least get compensated for that amount in some way (I admittedly am not familiar with your job or what that compensation could entail).

In the industry I work in I'm pretty sure you can't offer someone a certain amount and then immediately offer them less than that amount. The company would lose credibility in a hurry and no one would work for them anyway.

Sorry...I'm pissed they are trying to stiff you for some reason...

I'd go talk to the guy who offered you the certain amount and make it clear you aren't happy with what's happening.

This unchecked agression WILL NOT STAND! Past this line you DO NOT CROSS!

The fact that you're willing to take the job for 1k less should be an extra 'out' in your back pocket...but from what you've said, it sounds like at least the guy filling out the paperwork is not handling the situation well.

Yugoslav

[wacki]

Just so I'm not a "nit" I'll tell you this. The key is convincing them that it's in their best interest to give you a raise without threatening them. Of course that is also like shrinking all of SSH into a few paragraphs.

[superleeds]

Seriously dude, just look for another job.

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
How can you be so street smart and so dumb at the same time?

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy, this is the internet, I read the thread and totally forgot about it.

NT

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously dude, just look for another job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I found another job, I'm just trying not to get raped on my way out the door. This is a very desirable position for me if I can get over there with the salary relatively intact.

NT

[touchfaith]

You're taking job advice from a bunch of college kids that have never had a job, let alone had to support themselves?

nice.

Anyway, it is not very uncommon to see a place take the opportunity of an opening to cut cost. This happens everyday. You are not in a union, you are a free agent.

You need to decide what you would accept the job for, not what someone else could or did make in the position.

Weight the responsibility and/or chances for advancement against the pay, and make your desicion.

In the real world, it is not very uncommon to sit directly next to someone, doing the exact same job, for drastically different pay.

To me and from the tone of your original post, it sounds like you are suffering from either a bit of low morale, or are just simply getting a little burnout. Taking the new position for higher pay will go a long ways towards the morale issue (and you need it to if you are going to supervise people). The new position may help the burnout temporarily, but if you are really burning out in this job, it will only be a temporary solution.

[Los Feliz Slim]

If you accept the $1000 decrease without a struggle, it will be obvious that you'll go lower. Tell them you need to think about it and then put them off (letting them believe, if they choose, that you might have another iron in the fire). Avoid a yes/no situation. Essentially, stand firm on the original offer and either a) accept the $1000 decrease when it's officially on the table, or b) hold out for the original offer. Don't accept the $1000 hit before that's your official offer and expect that's all they'll try and do, because you'll have shown that you're flexible and they will need to push you to find out how flexible.

[FourKing Hell]

I don't know what industry you work in, but I take it that a grand is a significant percentage.

You stated that you made a deal with the guy that's gonna be your new boss. Then some other guy came in and took a grand of your pay. WTF?

Go to your new boss. Look him in the eyes and tell him what happened. I don't see how he can NOT get you the amount that was originally promised to you.

[usmfan]

I think this is good advice. Does it not strike anyone that this is one of the great side effects of playing poker? You need to decide how much bluff you have. Are you bluffing that you're willing to forego the job w/o the extra 1k or not. You need to decided and negotiate from there.

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]

First off, I think nit is the most massively misused word in this forum. Does anyone here that uses the word actually know what it means?

Here, let me help you


[/ QUOTE ]

Arguing about the definition of the word nit is very nittish behavior /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I still can't believe he didn't get the book after all this time though.

As far as the job goes though if he definitely had an offer and agreement at a certain salary there is no way i would take a dime less than that offer.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
Just so I'm not a "nit" I'll tell you this. The key is convincing them that it's in their best interest to give you a raise without threatening them. Of course that is also like shrinking all of SSH into a few paragraphs.

[/ QUOTE ]

this book is just another tawdry perversion of how to win friends and influence people.

give dale your money, not some blue blooded hacks.

fim

[[censored]]

good luck nothumb. I think for your plan to work they must need you to move on some level. If they are just as happy with you staying put then no I don't think it will unless they are decent people.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Suggestions lofted down from his high horse, oozing with pretentiousness.

[/ QUOTE ]
Christ, does anybody like you?

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Suggestions lofted down from his high horse, oozing with pretentiousness.

[/ QUOTE ]
Christ, does anybody like you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I didn't realize 'being liked' was the goal. In that case...

My new advice is...

Ask the person next to you how much they make. Then go into the bosses office and demand either the same pay, more, or else you are walking!


How's that?


Oh, but wait...That will get you fired since discussion of pay rates with co-workers is typically a dismissable offense at most (if not all) companies.

So I guess I'll have to stick with my original advice.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, I didn't realize 'being liked' was the goal.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was asking if anybody liked you at all. In life. Nothing to do with the advice or this situation.

[bwana devil]

NT,

I read OOT frequently so I’m pretty familiar w/ your situation and your life from what you post. I think you’re an incredibly smart guy with lots of passion and have always thought you were underemployed. I don't say any of that lightly.

I managed a private residential treatment center for juveniles for a short time and the sad fact of the matter is the job does not pay much money at any level. If your passion is working w/ juveniles and doing it in that setting, I would recommend looking at the county level in probation. I’m not sure what the NY scene is like but that is how Texas and Colorado are organized (the two states I am familiar w/). The government system pays far and away much better than private (yet even this leaves much to be desired).

Oh, and coincidently, when I started at this RTC the guy that interviewed me told me I was going to be getting one salary. When I showed up to work the first day he told me that he made a mistake in calculating some experience and HR refigured my salary would be lower. A few days later, I told him that I had turned down another job offer to take that job based on the original salary and I had a scheduled another meeting w/ the other RTC (all of which was true.) He made a few phone calls and by the end of the day, I had the original salary back.

Point being if you were offered a price and it was pulled away you do have a good reason to fight for it. you need to ask yourself if you’re willing to put up the fight.

bwana

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, I didn't realize 'being liked' was the goal.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was asking if anybody liked you at all. In life. Nothing to do with the advice or this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, since my real life does not have a Poll Option, I will have to assume that inviting me to home games, ball games, golfing, to photograph their weddings and asking for PC advice means....Yes.

Nice try though.

[jakethebake]

Has urinating in his office been suggested. Apparently this is the newest negotiation technique being thrown around 00t.

[MtSmalls]

Work with the System:

Approach your new supervisor/manager, who offered you the new position. "I accepted the offer of the new position with the understanding that the salary was $x. Now manager "Asshat" has informed me that it is going to be x-$1000. Is this a mistake?"

Then both of you can work on manager "Asshat" to get a fair salary negotiated (it may be somewhere between x and x-1000...)

[MaxPower]

Nothumb, you need to realize that you are in good position here. You hold some power and you should use it.

They have a position that they need to fill and they are convinced that you are the right person to fill it. If you decide not to take the position they will have to spend considerable time and money to find a new candidate.

I don't think you have anything to lose by playing hardball. As you said, its a game to them. They are not going to withdraw the job offer if you fight them on the salary and they will probably respect you more in the long run.

Even if they don't give in to your demands, you could get some concession from them. For instance, if they typical review salaries after one year, maybe they can move that up to 6 months.

[usmfan]

Just so we're clear: Don't actually call him "Asshat" unless that's his name.

[ThisHo]

This SUCKS!

I haven't read all posts, but I'm going to assume that the initial offer was verbal? The verbal offer/acceptance should be honored and they sure as hell shouldn't cut it another grand. Go to the guy that offered you the job and discuss it with him. Find out what happened?

It sounds like there isn't any way you're going to get the first 1k back, but you should let them know that there is no more "wiggle room" for you on this position. You should also be looking for a new company because this one is not reputable and if this is how they treat employees its not going to go well long term.

I'm a manager, I'm a penny pinching bastard, but if I fight for more $$$ for my people, not less. This totally sucks!

ThisHo

[TimTimSalabim]

Here's what you say to your boss:

"Is this a shifter car? I cannot drive a shifter car, alright, so we got a little situation here. I can't drive these kinda cars! What the f**k is goin' on! You think that's funny? Would you like to know, smartass? Would you like to know why I can't drive this kinda car? I'll tell you why, I'm used to "luxury" cars. Have you ever heard of a luxury car? You know what luxury means? Ever heard of Cadillac, Cadillac Eldorado? That's what I drive. I drive cars that "shift" themselves."

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
In the real world, it is not very uncommon to sit directly next to someone, doing the exact same job, for drastically different pay.


[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever this real world is you are talking about, I'm going to guess it's the same one I've been living in while working 30 hours a week through college at grueling jobs, then putting in weekly overtime in a stressful, underpaid job that is actually socially productive because I posess a conscience.

You're right, though, it was silly to post this to OOT, but only because it's been invaded by people whose first priority is to condescend and belittle.

NT

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
You're right, though, it was silly to post this to OOT, but only because it's been invaded by people whose first priority is to condescend and belittle.

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

This was part of the reason I was hesitant to post about my job situation. But, for every five worthless posts, there are some gems, and I do think you got some good advice in this thread.

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the real world, it is not very uncommon to sit directly next to someone, doing the exact same job, for drastically different pay.


[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever this real world is you are talking about, I'm going to guess it's the same one I've been living in while working 30 hours a week through college at grueling jobs, then putting in weekly overtime in a stressful, underpaid job that is actually socially productive because I posess a conscience.

You're right, though, it was silly to post this to OOT, but only because it's been invaded by people whose first priority is to condescend and belittle.

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

So what are you saying? Are you saying that it is not uncommon to sit next to someone making drastically different pay for the same job?

Or are you just being butt-hurt because I said 'In the real world'?

Sorry, but in the real world not everybody sugar coats their comments for you benefit. Some people actually speak their mind and give honest opinions.

Do you have kids? A mortgage? Car payments? People that
depend on your paycheck each month?

If not, no offense, but no, you are not in the real world yet, you are simply working your way through college. A place nobody is forcing you to go.

The 'march-in, demand then walk if rebuffed' approach doesn't work so well when people you love actually depend on you to produce an income.

[nothumb]

bwana -

Thanks for your kind words. They are definitely a boost.

As far as what you were saying about working with the state directly, this is something I have thought about also, once I have my MSW. Most counties in NY provide considerable stipends to youth placed in SILPs - Supervised Independent Living Programs. I have been quietly looking into what it takes to get one of these up, running, staffed, insured, licensed, etc. But this is for a ways down the road - I am still very young and I think some supervisory experience in my current agency would go a long way towards preparing me for that.

In the meantime, a little background. My new boss is a really trustworthy, very honest guy. He has always been straight with me on the administrative-level issues that influence these decisions. He told me today that my current boss backed me very strongly for the salary he offered me, and that his boss is genuinely doubtful that the big boss at the top is going to sign the paperwork at that price. Our agency is going through seriously difficult financial times.

Long story short, my new boss is doing his best to work at the uppermost levels to get me my asking price, and at least the intermediary guys are not standing in the way (and some, who I thought might not have my back, apparently do). I brought up the possibility of getting an extra week or two of vacation to compensate (which I would gladly accept, I need it) and that might be on the table.

To those who said get a new job, this agency is not trustworthy - you're right, the way they do things at some levels is really not to my taste. However, when I interviewed at another agency closer to home, I would have had to take a pay cut from my CURRENT salary (which is poor as it is) AND have to pay 40% of my own health insurance. From what I've been told it's the same at most of the other places around here. My current job is frustrating, but they pay head and shoulders above the competition, and the population is really needy. Also, I'll be moving under the supervision of someone I trust, someone who is on their way up in the agency and someone who has gone to bat for me repeatedly. So I'm going to take my chances.

NT

[nothumb]

You don't know anything about my situation, you came in and gave arrogant, condescending advice, and you're a jerk. Anyone who reads my posts knows I don't sugarcoat anything, but you are simply an unpleasant person and it seems your number one priority when posting is to act superior to others.

Your advice was not inaccurate, but it was nothing of which I am unaware. Certainly not useful enough to merit the utterly arrogant tone with which it was delivered. Thanks but no thanks.

NT

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're right, though, it was silly to post this to OOT, but only because it's been invaded by people whose first priority is to condescend and belittle.

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

This was part of the reason I was hesitant to post about my job situation. But, for every five worthless posts, there are some gems, and I do think you got some good advice in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, and I definitely appreciate it.

NT

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't know anything about my situation, you came in and gave arrogant, condescending advice, and you're a jerk. Anyone who reads my posts knows I don't sugarcoat anything, but you are simply an unpleasant person and it seems your number one priority when posting is to act superior to others.

Your advice was not inaccurate, but it was nothing of which I am unaware. Certainly not useful enough to merit the utterly arrogant tone with which it was delivered. Thanks but no thanks.

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, maybe you shouldn't have posted the question here.

I think a support group where people will tell you what you want to hear, in a supportive tone, is actually what you needed.