College?

Over in the mid-high stakes hold'em forum, I echoed High Desert Poker Man's suggestion to "Snake Girl" to stay in school. A couple of other folks said (EV-wise, anyway) college/grad-school was the worst thing that ever happened to them.


Now, I chose a computer science major, and that's enabled to get me a very high paying job, excellent benefits, job security, and a huge financial upside. Furthermore, I have very flexible working hours and I get to hang with extremely smart and interesting people.


"mike l." says he has a BA and MA that are worthless to him. I wonder if he picked the wrong majors. And I don't mean that art history is, ipso facto, the wrong major. I mean that you should study something you love and that you can pursue as a passion (or close to it) throughout your life. Of course, if you choose art history, you should accept that you probably won't make as much money as a computer science major. But if art history is your true passion, then again, I'd think the personal satisfaction EV would swamp the lack of financial reward.


OK, topic is broached - discuss.


Regards, Lee

I have a philosophy degree (B.A.) and a law degree. Obviously my law degree is more economically beneficial. But I don't regret my college degree (which was cheap so there's no debt involved) or the fact I have passed on some higher paying jobs in the law to do stuff I like to do. My wife has extensive school debt, but makes a hell of a lot more than I do. She did pay for an extra year of grad school (JD and M.I.M. dual degree) and went to a private school that was not really better than the public law school I went to. When we get the huge bills for her loans she sometimes thinks she made a mistake, at least by getting a degree she doesn't use. But I think this is shortsighted hindsight, if there is such a thing. She has received unsolicited job offers because of the degree. I mean, that extra degree let her summarily reject a job that is better than most jobs most people can ever get. Maybe she'll have to use that degree someday if things go bad where we are. That's not so bad for an extra 20K. Both of us have a lot of flexibility in what we do because of our educations. How can you put a price on that? I guess an economist can, and I think it would be worth a lot. Even if I never went to law school, the undergraduate degree would give me so many more choices in life, even if I couldn't go practice philosophy.


That's a long way of saying I generally think education is a great value. I joke about my lousy salary, but I make more than most people, and most mid-limit poker players certainly, and I get to do things other people watch TV shows about. Seems like a bargain.

here's what i had said:


going to college is one of the american dreams perpetuated by the man to keep you in debt for the rest of your life (buying a home being the other big one). i own a worthless BA and an even more worthless MA, both from very well known "excellent" schools.


my two best friends, same age, 28, make in the high 5 figures and both only have a high school diploma. while i struggle to get by, selling stuff on the internet and playing poker, they have developed skills the smart way. i have tens of thousands in dollars in student loans. my plan is to die before i pay them off completely.


unless you have a very specific career path in mind and really know what your doing (or have parents willing to foot the bill), college is one of the biggest mistakes a young adult can make.


ill add this: my friend who is an excellent and decently paid video game programmer tells me that

they get applicants all the time that he interviews who have nice BA degrees in computers and they just suck and he has to turn them away all the time. pretty funny.


of course this is all very anecdotal. one's man trash is another man's treasure. too bad we're usually just *boys* when we make decisions like what our major will be, etc.


yes you guessed pretty close re: art history lee. i have a worthless MA from USC in critical studies of film and TV.


but things are looking up: ive started substitute teaching K-12 to fund my post graduate work at the 10-20 tables.

I agree with you. I spent six years of my life at Va Tech and consider it time very well spent. And, because of the fact that I majored in math and statistics it made me perfectly prepared (or so I thought) for a career in poker/gambling, but I like to refer to it as applied math.

I think that college is actually a great place to find out what career(s) is/are right for you.


You have the opportunity to learn from experts (for some value of "expert") in an astonishing array of disciplines, if you attend a good liberal arts school. If you go to a school more devoted to a single area (MIT, Julliard, Cooper Union, for example) then yes, you better be moderately sure that's the direction you're headed.


But I have told my older stepson (currently a freshman at Occidental) that if he can learn to write well his freshman year, I think we can both consider it a successful two semesters. IMHO, "small" things like that make college worthwhile. I'm sorry you found differently.


Regards, Lee

"Unless you have a very specific career path in mind and really know what your doing (or have parents willing to foot the bill), college is one of the biggest mistakes a young adult can make."


I totally disagree with this statement. As you said most of us are "boys" when we have to make these decisions, therefore, most people when they go to college do not have specific career paths and don't have the foggiest idea of what they want to do. However, by taking a very broad course load in your first year or two I think most people will find something they like.

I still haven't picked a major, I'm still in a J.C...... any suggestions out there? Lets see I goof off a lot barely study and actually have a GPA above 3.3 (no they werent all easy classes either), but still can't decide what to get a degree in. Ugh.


Finally, why are colleges so damn liberal?!?!!?!!?


Kris

Take if from a person who makes a shitty salary. You HAVE to love what you do, no matter what it is. I could have made a lot more doing what I did not want, but with my current job (and for 30+ yrs) I have personal satisfaction and FREEDOM.

I graduated with a Biochemistry degree in 2000 and am now a graduate student doing medical research.


Now, mike l. makes some valid points, but I would have to disagree with his general argument. Obviously college is not for everyone and I don't feel it should be everyone's goal as they advance through the education system. Some people simply don't want to continue school, and some people opt to get a paying job directly out of high school due to other factors like children, or no money, or the chance to accept a high paying job without a degree if they're lucky.


The reason I went to university in the first place was to open up more possible career avenues that cannot be achieved without a degree. I chose a general science program in my first two years. By working hard and getting good grades I had many doors open up for me. For the first time in my life, I really understood what an education could get you. I had the luxury of choosing basically any career path I wanted. I could have gone to engineering, law, medicine, dentistry etc. etc. The chance to choose a career and to direct your life's path in the direction YOU want it to take is a privilege that few people have, and college made this possible. I was/am willing to take on a considerable student debt for the freedom to choose my path in life.


Now I'm not saying you can't find a well-paying, fulfilling career without a college degree, but I would never have been able to do medical research (which is what I truly love to do) without it. I am probably in the minority here, but I really feel that MONEY ISN'T EVERYTHING. I could have gone to dentistry for example and by this time I could have been a dental apprentice and been making more money than my parants ever did. But money wasn't as important to me as doing something I really love as opposed to staring in diseased mouths for 30 years (no disrespect to any dentists out there /images/smile.gif ).


smallfry.

I spent my freshman year and half of my sopomore year at Oxy before transferring. I thought the freshman program I was in there was very good. He should learn something there. Tell him to take a history class from Norm Cohen if he's still there. I'm a lunatic conservative and Cohen's a Berkeley radical leftist, but even I liked his classes.

I was a Political Science major at UCLA, intending to be a lawyer. I gradually lost interest in it. (Sorry, HDPM.) I minored in music. Strange combination, I know.


Though I am not a lawyer nor a professional musician, and didn't really enjoy my four years at UCLA, being there made my life. After I graduated, and even while I was there, I taught piano and played in local shows to make ends meet.

I still play for enjoyment, write music, and enjoy studying music history and analysis. I would not enjoy music as much as I do without having studied it in college.


And the study skills and things I learned there have helped me in my work. (I own a manufacturing and import business.) You give yourself many more opportunities for success by going to college.


My daughter has just dropped out of college to pursue her music career. I'm devastated. Knowledge and study can only help a person. Real life experience is more important, no doubt, but lay the gronndwork for that experience with a sound educational background and your chances for success multiply exponentially.

not being a lawyer. Even though I like what I do overall, there's a lot wrong with the profession. There are a lot of days I hope my wife makes enough to keep me as a trust fund pro. Monday was one of them when there were people vomiting on one another in court and sitting there in it, mopping it up a little with articles of their clothing which they subsequently put back on. Had to see if dear old dad could get out of jail I guess and wouldn't leave. Makes a nice business look attractive many days. And that's just the people, not lawyers or judges.

I'm probably America's last defender of a liberal education. By temperament I was destined to major in the hard sciences, but by the time I got to college I had spent two tours in Viet Nam and had developed an intense curiosity about the human race. After my first two years as a math major I switched to the humanities and social sciences, taking whatever course sparked my interest. I took no courses that even remotely suggested a vocational application.


People used to comment constantly on what a shame it was that I hadn't studied something I could use, but the fact is that an hour hardly passes without my using something I studied thirty years ago. College was my big chance to be exposed to things I would never have heard of otherwise. The idea of going through life without knowing who the Dadaists were is frightening. What's more, I learned how to learn and how to think critically, and I just can't imagine what life must be like without knowing how to do that.


In Mike I's defense I'll say that I was continually broke while in school, but you could go to some state-run schools in those days for next to nothing, and I never had to go into debt. If faced with a lifetime of debt I may have selected other alternatives.

I think I detect some evidence of a generation gap here. I am 31, which I believe is close to the age of mike l. I got my BA in 1996 and my MA in 1999. (I took a long break from university and went back). Most others who have responded seem to have gone to school and started their work lives two or more decades earlier. Its a different ballgame out in the working world now and I think that mike's frustrations are very typical amongst those without math, science and business degrees nowadays (and many with them). Since the late 1980s the BA has been increasingly pushed as a meal ticket and I think that the prevalence of students with BAs has made the degree itself less useful overall. When I hear my parents and aunts and uncles talk about their experiences finding careers it seemed that if you got a 4 year degree you were very likely to find a career that could, say, provide a relatively middle-class income for you. Not nearly as many people had them, and they stood for a level of achievement that made a person stand out in a pool of job appicants. The BA does not have that same impact in today's job market. But, I think the level of expectation is still there because recent grads are still working under the assumption (passed down from their parents and others in the previous generations) that a BA will open tons of doors. When the hoards of grads go try to find meaningful middle-class level work and come up short, there is quite a bit of frustration. For them to say that they were sold a false dream is not that far off, IMO. There is simply not enough jobs for all of them--but of course, none of their counselors, parents, etc.. are going to say "you should really go to college but it might not help you much when you look for a job". I think mike l. is not alone when he states that he feels his degree is useless and the mountain of debt he is left with makes the situation that much worse. Speaking strictly from a job-procurement perspective I don't think his degree is worth that much. There are armies of college educated restaurant, coffee shop, video store and office temp workers who would agree.


On the flip side, mike l. and those like him are better off as people by having gone to college and been exposed to the knowledge gleaned from that experience. But one must weigh that vis a vis the cost. For those (like me) who paid for college themselves its hard to quantify. I have 25K in student loans. Will the jobs I get due to my degrees recoup the 25K? Maybe someday but no guarantees. I love history and so I got degrees in that (and archival science for my MA) which does not provide the level of income of say, biology or computer science.


Overall, it seems like mike l.'s comments have a lot of legitimacy. The college education system seems to mirror our economic system overall: it promises success as a reward for hard work but has no guarantees of success built in. There will always be those that work hard and don't get rewarded, that is the way of capitalism. Failure is endemic to the system. When one recognizes this one must give credence to the words of those for whom the system does not work.


KJS

anything emphasizes problem solving (engineering, finance) and/or critical thinking (economics, philosophy). Some of these have the benefit of being combined with subject matter desired in the job market, which is very good if you don't plan on getting an advanced degree anytime soon (or at all).

Geez, do I sound that old? I'm not much older than you and my wife is the same age as you are. Maybe I just have a geezer's attitude.:)

Excellent post from KJS.


I think he (she?) is absolutely right that the world has changed since I got my B.S. '78. While a BA/BS is no longer the meal ticket it once was, it's now perhaps more important than ever simply *because* that's considered a "base requirement" now. You need it to simply get in the door of an interview, though it's not a guarantee of a job offer.


Is that fair? Probably not. But on the scale of universal unfairness, it seems relatively low.


I do want to acknowledge that college is *not* for everybody. And when you look at what college offers you, you have to consider the counter-balancing cost in time, lost earnings/investments, experience, etc.


But to mike l. and others who have responded, thank you. I've seen an important "other side" to the college question.


Thanks, Lee

I had your age pegged about right, actually. You just got lumped in with the older guys for the sake of expediency. Don't worry--you don't sound *that* old /images/smile.gif


KJS

Too bad I suck at math because engineering is now out of my league. My dad's an engineer, and two of the guys in one of my bands are engineering students. I have a good friend who has a philosophy degree and it sure isn't worth much in terms of turning it into anything lucrative.

Anyway I think your suggestions of finance or econ might be best for me.

Thanks again for the reply!


Kris

So what do you do Ratso? Enjoyable job with satisfaction and freedom sounds pretty good :-)


Kris

Excellent post.

Obviously there is some legtimate debate about what college is worth, but would you agree that it is a huge error to forego college if somebody else pays for it?

BTW, My plan is to just finish it up, My dad will pay for EVERYTHING, so I figure the cost is just time.


Kris

Turning down a free college education is certainly a big mistake. The degree will certainly make you eligible for some jobs you not otherwise be and you will be a more well-rounded, knowledgable person. Make the best of it. Good luck.


KJS

for doing a very good job of explaining the frustration i was trying to convey. i hope some of the older posters will take what youve said to heart.

"While a BA/BS is no longer the meal ticket it once was, it's now perhaps more important than ever simply *because* that's considered a "base requirement" now."


in some fields perhaps, but it's of little or no significance in others. for example, my friend whom i mentioned before who works as a video game programmer. when they interview an applicant they run them through a set of tests to see if they actually know what theyre doing. so practical experience is big in that field. he's interviewed many kids with very good looking degrees and turned them down when they couldnt solve the basic problems they were tested on.

the citadel in charleston, s.c. nothing liberal there...make a man outta ya..gl

Did you read Goat's profile? Professional punker from SoCal hits the Citadel. LMAO. (I'd last about 30 seconds.)

Complete Tangent here, but do you know if the pink game is spread at Trop every day? I'm staying there on Thursday the 20th and am playing mostly at taj, but wouldn't mind trying my hand at trop as well. Also, have you ever played in the cheap hold em tournament on Thursday? Seems like a good time to me before I hit up some real action.


Jeff

A close friend of mine runs his own software company. They do digital image processing, which is a very specialized field. He has 4 employees, 3 of which have Masters degrees in Electrical Engineering with an emphasis in Image Processing and one who doesnt. The one who doesnt (Joe) is unbelievably bright and productive, more so than any of the others. But he makes much less than the other 3.


Does he feel cheated? I have asked him, and he says no. He feels fortunate that my friend game him a job when nobody else would without a college degree. He is now going to school part-time towards a BS in Electrical Engineering. He feels that its his only way to get ahead in his field.


Considering he knows 3 times more than any Masters graduate could know, is it fair that he makes much less than a Master graduate? Of course not, but its the way things work. People in companies who hire people have to justify their decisions, and its much easier to justify hiring somebody with a Masters degree in a specialized field than it is to hire somebody with no degree at all. Its also much safer, because the reprecussions of hiring somebody with no degree will be higher than somebody with a Masters degree if that person fails.

I agree. Nothing can pay the price of freedom.

One of the things that liberal arts school like Occidental College are about is how to think. For those that want to take that tool and apply it over and over in life a liberal arts education can be a powerful thing. The specific topic you study is almost unimportant. For those that want to be taught something they will then iterate for the rest of their lives that kind of education probably has negative return.


FWIW I'm fairly sure that Dr. Cohen has retired. But that doesn't mean he doesn't teach a class or a seminar occasionally.


mph Oxy '89

We were in the same class at Occidental. I can't put a face w/ your name though. It is a good school, but I ended up going somewhere I liked better.

Its a mature student who is to be able to identify when a specific avenue of learning isn't panning out and who finds a better way. Its fundamental "to learning" and not "being taught".


I ran across my "look book" the other day. It would be interesting to put a face with your name.

J_Brody@msn.com

Software engineering is a field where I believe traditional education isn't doing a great job. If that is a field you are interested in I would suggest you get a degree in a hard science or math and fill in with the upper division cs classes. The small advantage you will initially give up in knowledge will quickly be made up in the ability to think critically.


"so practical experience is big in that field"


So what the heck is he doing interviewing newgrads? In almost all cases you hire newgrads because of potential, not because of current knowledge. I think you've taken an example of a field where very few if any newgrads would perform well and generalized improperly.


mph