Did Phil Ivey implode..?Final table ESPN circuit event Take Tahoe [Archive]

Mike Gallo

08-09-2005, 11:13 PM

What do you guys think of Iveys last few televised hands?

IMHO it came across that Phil Ivey wanted to get lucky, rather than outplay his opponent.

Phil Ivey played the last hand on a level I do not understand.

Considering Phil Ivey showed no strength anywhere in the hand, why would villiam believe him and fold? Perhaps Phil Ivey put the villian on Ace high.

It appeared that Phil Ivey ran out of gas.

Any opinions?

Edited to include event...

illogical

08-09-2005, 11:24 PM

If Ivey put villain on ace on on that last hand then why not just call? The all-in with bottom pair is right up there with Lisandro folding his pocket tens. It just doesn't make any sense at all.

EasilyFound

08-09-2005, 11:34 PM

looked like some of my foolish HU play at $11 sngs . . .

pokerdirty

08-09-2005, 11:34 PM

He looked like he just got finished [censored] 3 Costa Rican whores for 8 hrs straight.

But yeah, for being the "best player in the world", he blew donkey nuts.

Easy E

08-09-2005, 11:56 PM

I too believe that all-in represented nothing. Phil's going to wait that long with Ten-better kicker or QT or better hands?

Bad move, but we don't know much about the earlier action (remember the early full house hand)

Easy E

08-09-2005, 11:58 PM

The all-in with bottom pair is right up there with Lisandro folding his pocket tens.

No, it's much worse. I could see laying down to Phil's all-in early in the tournament with the tens and the 4445 board. I really didn't think the all-in river move was a good one by Phil.

Blackdirt12

08-10-2005, 12:50 AM

I don't think he really cared. What's 250k to Phil Ivey?

AEKDBet

08-10-2005, 01:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think he really cared. What's 250k to Phil Ivey?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, Ivey wants to win.

pokerdirty

08-10-2005, 04:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think he really cared. What's 250k to Phil Ivey?

[/ QUOTE ]

20 BBs

lighterjobs

08-10-2005, 04:54 AM

he said in a cardplayer interview that he just wanted to get lucky when it got down to three players and end it quick and that's where he obviously blew it.

Blackdirt12

08-10-2005, 05:31 AM

Do you ever play freeze outs with your friends? Where maybe two or three of you know what you're doing and the other six don't? It always comes down to one of the guys who knows how to play vs. one of the guys who can't. And the guy who can play prods at the guy who can't, and if the donk doesn't roll over the player starts to get the look Phil Ivey had. Everyone else is outside getting drunk and laughing and this
donk keeps falling out of trouble. Pretty soon you don't care who wins and you just want to be done with it.

Sluss

08-10-2005, 07:08 AM

If I remember corectly there was a huge snowstorm outside and the Mirage WPT was starting the next day. Plus, the PPT was finishing up and there would be a Big Game that night. Looked like Phil was just itching to get back to Vegas.

Of course that could have been the 120th hand of heads-up, with how absolutely crappy ESPN's coverage has been I fade in and out.

TomHimself

08-10-2005, 07:11 AM

yea supposedly they played heads up for a long time, cant remember the exact duration /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Shaun

08-10-2005, 07:28 AM

I honestly think he could care less about the money and just got tired. The guy is a gambler and plays/bets high enough so that the prize money was probably not a big deal to him and he just decided to take chances.

Kevmath

08-10-2005, 08:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
yea supposedly they played heads up for a long time, cant remember the exact duration /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

According to Nolan Dalla's report, (http://www.pokerpages.com/tournament/result10937.htm) the final table went 12:20, heads-up was about 3 hours.

Phil2

08-10-2005, 09:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I honestly think he could care less about the money and just got tired. The guy is a gambler and plays/bets high enough so that the prize money was probably not a big deal to him and he just decided to take chances.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this...I read that he finds multi-day tournaments "boring" and he gets distracted by the juicy side action...that he could make more in those cash games than the 1st place cash...if that is true why does he play in these things? Television / Full Tilt etc?

wpr101

08-10-2005, 10:44 AM

If he really was bored or whatever/didn't feel like playing anymore then why not just leave and move up the money while other people bust out? Obviously nobodys going to do that though.

jba

08-10-2005, 11:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I agree with this...I read that he finds multi-day tournaments "boring" and he gets distracted by the juicy side action...that he could make more in those cash games than the 1st place cash...if that is true why does he play in these things? Television / Full Tilt etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

groupies

08-10-2005, 12:11 PM

I was hoping ESPN would give more time to this heads up matchup than they did because it was a 3 hour or so battle. ESPN makes it look like Ivey just didn't care and blew 3 big hands right away. Sadly for Ivey he didn't have the Henry Tran/Danny Nyugen magic on those draws.

Yeti

08-10-2005, 12:13 PM

Miles Ahead

08-10-2005, 12:38 PM

I followed it live on cardplayer when it was happening and it was actually much more of a back and forth battle than what espn showed, and it went on for over 3 hours. The shocking thing was how suddenly it ended.

Lisandro did double up early in heads up when Ivey called the push with the flush draw, which put them close to even in chips, but Ivey pushed back hard (playing extremely aggressively) and had over a 3 to 1 chip advantage again 20 hands later. Ivey still held a fairly substantial chip lead right up until the end, but then those last two hands (Ivey pushing with the open end straight draw and calling with the pair of two) did come almost back to back.

Those two hands were played strangely, to say the least. Ivey had only bet 60,000 into Lisandro with the straight draw when Lisandro moved in. I don't like the call at all. And I didn't understand the check/call when he paired his two's. I guess he was trying to represent a slow-played straight.

splashthepot

08-10-2005, 12:59 PM

I was thinking that he made a deal and wanted to get out of there to get to the big game. Ivey doesn't seem to care about fame (any Negraneau fans out there?) and perhaps he needed to get back to his real job.

[ QUOTE ]
What do you guys think of Iveys last few televised hands?

IMHO it came across that Phil Ivey wanted to get lucky, rather than outplay his opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

troymclur

08-10-2005, 01:14 PM

Because that both guarantee's him losing and not winning. If he just opens wildly, he either busts out quick or takes it quick.

TransientR

08-10-2005, 01:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you ever play freeze outs with your friends? Where maybe two or three of you know what you're doing and the other six don't? It always comes down to one of the guys who knows how to play vs. one of the guys who can't. And the guy who can play prods at the guy who can't, and if the donk doesn't roll over the player starts to get the look Phil Ivey had. Everyone else is outside getting drunk and laughing and this
donk keeps falling out of trouble. Pretty soon you don't care who wins and you just want to be done with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lissandro is not one of your Donk friends.

Frank

OrangeKing

08-10-2005, 01:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you ever play freeze outs with your friends? Where maybe two or three of you know what you're doing and the other six don't? It always comes down to one of the guys who knows how to play vs. one of the guys who can't. And the guy who can play prods at the guy who can't, and if the donk doesn't roll over the player starts to get the look Phil Ivey had. Everyone else is outside getting drunk and laughing and this
donk keeps falling out of trouble. Pretty soon you don't care who wins and you just want to be done with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lissandro is not one of your Donk friends.

Frank

[/ QUOTE ]

But he hasn't been on TV over and over again, how could he possibly be good? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

troymclur

08-10-2005, 02:08 PM

I think it was Barry Greenstein that described one of Ivey's weaknesses as neglecting tournaments. That coupled with his comment about getting bored at tournaments makes it pretty reasonable to think he might be inclined to say "screw it" much like one would if he were tilting, with the caveat that Phil isn't tilting as much as he's just trying to move on to the more interesting cash games.

Python49

08-10-2005, 03:10 PM

I thought it was obvious that after 3 long hours they decided to just chop so they could just get outta there.

troymclur

08-10-2005, 03:50 PM

well, i haven't seen the fight yet so i probably should never have said anything /images/graemlins/smile.gif. But i think there's some contention as to whether it was chopped or not. Along the lines of: why make a deal then play for over 3 hours?

JC_Saves

08-10-2005, 07:04 PM

Ivey's play at the end head's up was just lame. To chase the flush and the straights the way he did I thought was careless, and the last hand was just fishy.

This guy is great, but I guess he isn't all that good to a guy that doesn't buy his schtick.

Lisandro should have busted his ass when he went all in and he had the FH with the 10s. There is no way I would have given him credit for a bigger hand at that moment by the way the hand was played. Ivey was lucky that he finished as high as he did considering how this had should have gone.

poker327

08-10-2005, 07:37 PM

Watching Phil at the end, he looked very tired and didn't want to be there anymore. It seemed he thought he was wasting his time there.

Quicksilvre

08-10-2005, 10:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ivey's play at the end head's up was just lame.

[/ QUOTE ]

...in the hands we saw. I've got no clue how he played overall.

TransientR

08-10-2005, 10:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you ever play freeze outs with your friends? Where maybe two or three of you know what you're doing and the other six don't? It always comes down to one of the guys who knows how to play vs. one of the guys who can't. And the guy who can play prods at the guy who can't, and if the donk doesn't roll over the player starts to get the look Phil Ivey had. Everyone else is outside getting drunk and laughing and this
donk keeps falling out of trouble. Pretty soon you don't care who wins and you just want to be done with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lissandro is not one of your Donk friends.

Frank

[/ QUOTE ]

But he hasn't been on TV over and over again, how could he possibly be good? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah,

He can't be any good, he just makes more money at poker than many who do show up on TV /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Frank

sdplayerb

08-10-2005, 10:17 PM

he didn't put him on an ace.
he put him on a hand that he couldn't call an allin with.

John Ho

08-11-2005, 07:43 AM

If you're the chip leader like Lissandro was and you're shoving in lots of your chips against another chip leader with lots of short stacks still to be eliminated with an unimproved pair of 10s you are gonna regret it most of the time. These guys are playing for money not who never makes a mathematically incorrect fold.

fnurt

08-11-2005, 11:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you're the chip leader like Lissandro was and you're shoving in lots of your chips against another chip leader with lots of short stacks still to be eliminated with an unimproved pair of 10s you are gonna regret it most of the time. These guys are playing for money not who never makes a mathematically incorrect fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be that as it may, Ivey has to think about the same issue when he sticks in all his chips against the one guy at the table who can bust him. It was a ballsy play, no question, but I don't think he would have made it if he knew the other guy had TT. I'm still not convinced it wasn't a little on the reckless side.

I won't criticize the laydown with TT but I don't think Ivey can COUNT on him making that laydown.

Fitz

08-11-2005, 11:33 AM

I wondered if maybe they had cut a deal and he just wanted to get it over one way or the other.

Fitz

lozen

08-11-2005, 11:55 AM

I just watched it last night via Bit torrent. Phil just never hits it seems. That late and and the outs no proble

How about the guy folding trip 10"s that was brutal

Quicksilvre

08-11-2005, 01:08 PM

Could be. Rememeber, though, they played for three hours heads up, so it's not as if they made a deal right as it got to the final two.

troymclur

08-11-2005, 01:29 PM

which torrent site did you find it at?

Hold'me

08-11-2005, 02:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Be that as it may, Ivey has to think about the same issue when he sticks in all his chips against the one guy at the table who can bust him. It was a ballsy play, no question, but I don't think he would have made it if he knew the other guy had TT. I'm still not convinced it wasn't a little on the reckless side.

I won't criticize the laydown with TT but I don't think Ivey can COUNT on him making that laydown.

[/ QUOTE ]
You think Phil wouldn't have made the all-in move if he was sure he didn't have the best hand? Anymore brilliant observations Captain obvious? Oh please do share.

GFunk911

08-11-2005, 04:28 PM

08-11-2005, 05:05 PM

I didnt even think he played the last hand bad. He put lisandro all in twice with good draws, lost them both, then lisandro made a good call in the last hand.

John Ho

08-12-2005, 06:00 AM

Yes and in this case I believe (without doing the numbers) he had positive tEV and cEV on his call with the 10s. I mean he was only a 21-1 favorite if he calls! But the uncertainty of Ivey's hands and the relative positions of the other players made this a good fold IMO.

John Ho

08-12-2005, 06:02 AM

That is a stupid comment. Just look at the last hand...Ivey is capable of going all in even when he knows he is beat.

Now whether he knew that on that 99 vs. TT hand is another matter.