oh no, not that river.. what to do? (11's)

about the 5th hand, table is playing stupidly loose and passive preflop. preflop call is marginal, and i know it.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB (t710)
BB (t660)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t800)</font>
UTG+1 (t1315)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t690)
MP2 (t760)
MP3 (t775)
<font color="#C00000">CO (t765)</font>
Button (t725)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t72.50) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t40</font>, UTG+2 calls t40, CO calls t40, SB calls t40, BB calls t40.

Turn: (t272.50) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t300</font>, UTG+2 folds, CO calls t300, SB folds, BB folds.

River: (t872.50) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

now what? we both have close to 400-450 behind

[bluefeet]

fold PF! /images/graemlins/wink.gif (seriously though...late position MAYBE)

i don't know dude....any check/bet short of a push is screaming "steal me". could be a donk on a missed flush draw.

choices:
- check/fold
- check/call (AI most likely)
- t100/fold to push (yuk)
- push

3 of the 4, you're all but dead. check/fold and get blinded down to nadda? i'd recklessly just push and pray he was on a flush draw /images/graemlins/crazy.gif (punishment for playing PF)

[nate_king1]

[ QUOTE ]
now what? we both have close to 400-450 behind

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't call with 78s UTG. Simple as that.

[moose47]

I think the only two options here are check/call or push. You have come this far so just pray he is on a busted flush draw. Given those two choices, check/calling is my preferred play. If your opponent has the Queen then you are going broke either way. If he doesn't then at least give him a chance to bluff at the river. Certainly a missed flushed draw isn't calling a push so the only way to get chips from him is to allow him to bet.

[psyduck]

check/call, check/fold, and it really depends on reads.

another option is to make a small blocking bet, like T100. even a minbet (T15) works sometimes! you might as well try.

btw, limping UTG with 87s is marginally okay. I'm tending to do it a lot in the higher levels. if you're raised a fair amount, you can let it go. however, implied odds are amazing here, which is obviously why you make the play. if you can get away from top pair or something on a board, then by all means go for it and limp these sort of hands

edit: by higher levels, I mean higher buyins, not blind levels

[ QUOTE ]
Don't call with 78s UTG. Simple as that.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, amazing thought process, thank you for answering the question. sng forum needs more posters like you.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the only two options here are check/call or push. You have come this far so just pray he is on a busted flush draw. Given those two choices, check/calling is my preferred play. If your opponent has the Queen then you are going broke either way. If he doesn't then at least give him a chance to bluff at the river. Certainly a missed flushed draw isn't calling a push so the only way to get chips from him is to allow him to bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is what i wish i had done in hindsight, and i definitely agree with this.

amazingly enough, i was dead the entire time and the queen actually saved me. i pushed and was called by A7. crazy!

and regarding the limp, the previous 4 hands had gone 5+ limpers with no raise. with implied odds i am going to do this every time, even UTG. i can fold to a raise easily. but that wasn't the question.

[nate_king1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't call with 78s UTG. Simple as that.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, amazing thought process, thank you for answering the question. sng forum needs more posters like you.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL..If you call 78s UTG you are a fish just trying to keep busy. I wouldn't even be in this mess. You seem like your good enough to play any hand and outplay them. NOT at the 11s. Your mistake....

[lastchance]

Position matters, and folding preflop is a good idea, but w/e.

Flop play. I bet more than t40 here, I bet t60. You need to make a signifigant bet with a scary board and a heavy field.

Turn: T300? Meh. There's t275 in the pot, you've got t750 behind... In hindsight, pushing might be good here, though t300...

I would have bet t200-t250 if I didn't push and the pot was about that big, makes it easier to play the river.

On the end, you simply can't push. You're not getting a better hand to fold, and you're not getting a worse hand to call.

You must check or block bet here. Checking allows Villain to bluff with nothing, block bet allows you to stall A-high but fold to Queens full.

[bluefeet]

Me: i'd recklessly just push and pray he was on a flush draw (punishment for playing PF)

-- very VERY dumb advice


Mr.Chance &amp; Moose &amp; Duck: [ QUOTE ]
On the end, you simply can't push. You're not getting a better hand to fold, and you're not getting a worse hand to call.

You must check or block bet here. Checking allows Villain to bluff with nothing, block bet allows you to stall A-high but fold to Queens full.

[/ QUOTE ]

...thank you guys for taking the time to answer this correctly (my bad)

CO has 765 after 5 hands. This is the first hand he has played from outside the blinds. This tells us nothing. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

This is an 11. He could be feeling tricky with AA, KK, or not wanting to fold JJ or TT.

Flush draw is an enormous possibility. Virtually everyone in the 11s limps with Axs in the first two levels.

Now what would I do? I have no freaking clue. You're certainly not getting a better hand to fold. If you push, A high won't call. If you bet t200 or so, and get pushed over top, you'll have no chips left.

This is a tough spot. Seriously, fold preflop please.

I *may* check and see what villain fires out here (if he does). Ack, how do we decide if it is a bluff or not?

I hate this hand!

[Jay36489]

[ QUOTE ]
You must check or block bet here. Checking allows Villain to bluff with nothing, block bet allows you to stall A-high but fold to Queens full.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pot is ~870 and Hero has ~450 left. How much would you put out to make a blocking bet? It seems like you don't really have enough to.

[lastchance]

Hell, t100 should be enough here, I think. People underbet all the time, and this is the perfect spot to do it. I don't respect Villain's game much.

[ QUOTE ]

This is a tough spot. Seriously, fold preflop please.


[/ QUOTE ]

seriously, there is no pattern between limping hands like 87s in a large multiway pot preflop and a sudden influx of hands like this.

i understand that the limp was less than optimal, but i was questioning the river play. one does not inherently result in the other. thanks.

[Jay36489]

So lets say you bet 100 and he pushes leaving you with ~350:1400 on a call. Can you really fold there? I couldn't but maybe thats a leak. The 100 blocking bet looks so weak he might bluff at it.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
So lets say you bet 100 and he pushes leaving you with ~350:1400 on a call. Can you really fold there? I couldn't but maybe thats a leak. The 100 blocking bet looks so weak he might bluff at it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think Villain isn't a tricky type of opponent. I think I could fold here.

But, meh, it is a bit FPS. Check/folding or check-calling might be better.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is a tough spot. Seriously, fold preflop please.


[/ QUOTE ]

seriously, there is no pattern between limping hands like 87s in a large multiway pot preflop and a sudden influx of hands like this.

i understand that the limp was less than optimal, but i was questioning the river play. one does not inherently result in the other. thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, and you knew it was going to be multiway did you? How when you limped UTG. This is why position is important

Anyway, the turn bet is either too high or too low, the bet you made doesn't really achieve anything, if you want to price out draws bet half the pot, if you want to take the pot push, if you want to leave yourself screwed on the river if a scare card drops, bet what you did /images/graemlins/confused.gif