100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..

[raptor517]

***** Hand History for Game 2506106721 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:14690139 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Tuesday, August 09, 16:40:54 EDT 2005
Table Table 11900 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 6: hold___fold ( $1055 )
Seat 3: Itachi86 ( $985 )
Seat 5: lanford ( $1550 )
Seat 10: eddyk4 ( $980 )
Seat 7: Domanooch ( $975 )
Seat 2: MrSneakers ( $730 )
Seat 8: cubanacan ( $930 )
Seat 1: CATCH8 ( $795 )
Seat 9: TopSet69 ( $1045 )
Seat 4: HeelofTar ( $955 )
Trny:14690139 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Itachi86 [ As Js ]
lanford folds.
hold___fold folds.
Domanooch folds.
cubanacan folds.
TopSet69 folds.
eddyk4 calls [15].
CATCH8 calls [15].
MrSneakers folds.
>You have options at Table 12059 Table!.
Itachi86 calls [5].
HeelofTar checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8s, 9d, Ac ]
Itachi86 checks.
HeelofTar checks.
eddyk4 bets [15].
CATCH8 folds.
Itachi86 calls [15].
HeelofTar calls [15].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2d ]
Itachi86 checks.
HeelofTar checks.
>You have options at Table 12059 Table!.
eddyk4 bets [60].
Itachi86 folds.

hmm.. i love discussions.. GO!! holla

[durron597]

Why are you calling the flop bet? Hoping to catch a J?

Bet flop, fold to raise. If called, check/fold turn, if check behind turn, check call river.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you calling the flop bet? Hoping to catch a J?

Bet flop, fold to raise. If called, check/fold turn, if check behind turn, check call river.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats just bad advice plain and simple. holla

edit.. as for why i call the flop? are u kidding? why is everyone scared to see a turn? holla

Looks good to me. Although, something about the minimum bet on the flop would make me want to give it some more action then. However, his bigger bet on the turn shows that you probably made the correct choice not to get any more chips involved.

As bad as AJ is when you pair the ace it gets even worse when the board has multiple cards 6-10 on it. It only gives other, weaker, aces another chance to beat you in addition to the good aces that already have you outkicked. There is also the threat of two pair, trips, and draws that will bet more than you can call on the river whether they hit or not.

The call on the flop was fine, as you would have later streets to find out where you stand and it was only 15. Backdoor outs to boot, I think the call here, despite holding the dreaded Ace-Jack, is good.

I have definetly(thanks to experience and advice on this board) developed a much tighter strategy with AJ and AQ in the early levels as my STT play has developed over the past month or so, since I've been devoted to them full time. This play wouldn't have always been standard for me, but now, it definetly is.

[LowDown22]

Hmmm...Ok, for my sake could someone explain why we play this so weakly? Are we putting eddyk4 on AK automatically because at a $55 everyone knows better than to limp preflop in this spot? I would have bet this flop...

[downtown]

Judging from your title and the hand in question, are you trying to say that you feel your advantage later in the SNG when the blinds are higher is so much that it is not worth risking chips with TPGK?

Are you playing this hand soley for flush value then? I think if you're just gonna play it this weak/tight, or if you really are just looking to preserve chips, just fold preflop. I am being a little bit extreme here (i.e. I don't really expect you to fold preflop), I'm just trying to make a point.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

thats just bad advice plain and simple. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Well then enlighten me. I like the line more than yours, at least I extract value sometimes. Unless you think this hand is enough of a trap that you should never put chips in.

AJo is my most profitable hand, even more than AA.

Edit: scratch that, AA has passed AJo (they were very close last I checked)

[Sabrazack]

This is a 50+5, i dont knopw how much different they are from the 20+2 that i play. But what makes you so certain that your TP is no good here?

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
are you trying to say that you feel your advantage later in the SNG when the blinds are higher is so much that it is not worth risking chips with TPGK?

[/ QUOTE ]

yea something like that.. its just not necessary to throw yer chips away in a spot like that when they play so damn weak tight later. holla

[ZeroPointMachine]

I don't understand. If you just refuse to play AJ then fold it pre-flop. If you can't play it with this flop what the hell are you doing in the hand. You've clearly decided that villian has an AK,AQ,set or 2 pair and carefully eliminated all other possibilities through some unknown power. Insight into the use of this power would be appreciated.

[Newt_Buggs]

against that mini bet I would probably checkraise the flop. You're usually ahead here, and $55 donkeys are still calling a checkraise with hands a lot weaker than AJ here.

[UMTerp]

I check-call small/moderate bets the whole way as my default. Anything around a pot-sized bet, and I'll dump it. In raptor's hand, I call, then call another 120 or so on the river.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand. If you just refuse to play AJ then fold it pre-flop. If you can't play it with this flop what the hell are you doing in the hand. You've clearly decided that villian has an AK,AQ,set or 2 pair and carefully eliminated all other possibilities through some unknown power. Insight into the use of this power would be appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

i love it when people who have earned zero respect from me and have likely playedl ess than 500 sngs try to berate me instead of calmly asking questions.

ANYWAYS.. everyone seems very slow to grasp the fact that i never said i was sure i was beat. thats not the point is it? the point is, the risk reward ratio to gain those chips in there isnt worth it with this marginal holding. period. keep arguin tho i like it. holla

[Irieguy]

When you are playing short-stack poker (like a SNG), you are best served by getting chips into the pot whenever you rate to almost certainly have the best hand.

You played this hand like a little sissy on every street.

Irieguy

PS- The strategy trend on this forum seems to have evolved to the point where most people would advocate checking the BB with hands as strong as AK and folding top pair through levels 1-3, so that you are still alive to be in a position where you are forced to open push with 10-8s 5-handed with 5 BBs. I think this type of approach to SNGs worked much better a year or so ago... and even then it still wasn't as good as extracting maximum value at every level.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
against that mini bet I would probably checkraise the flop. You're usually ahead here, and $55 donkeys are still calling a checkraise with hands a lot weaker than AJ here.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like this line the least. ill give ya a minute to try to figure out why. open yer mind for just a minute, think broadly, think openly, and you will become better. AJ is the most enlightening hand in poker. holla

[Vee Quiva]

I see two viable strategies here.

1. Raise preflop and see if the limpers will fold. Nobody is showing any strength. Hell I think I've seen some aggressive maniac on this forum suggest moving all in when people limp to him on the small blind. If you get a caller or two, at least you've taken control of the betting.

2. Lead out with a probe bet on the flop. Often that will win it right there. If you get called, then check the turn unless it helps you. If you are raised then throw it away.

Your line seems way too passive.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand. If you just refuse to play AJ then fold it pre-flop. If you can't play it with this flop what the hell are you doing in the hand. You've clearly decided that villian has an AK,AQ,set or 2 pair and carefully eliminated all other possibilities through some unknown power. Insight into the use of this power would be appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

i love it when people who have earned zero respect from me and have likely playedl ess than 500 sngs try to berate me instead of calmly asking questions.

ANYWAYS.. everyone seems very slow to grasp the fact that i never said i was sure i was beat. thats not the point is it? the point is, the risk reward ratio to gain those chips in there isnt worth it with this marginal holding. question mark. keep arguin tho i like it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp, at least, imho.

[Unarmed]

Here's my thoughts rap:

PF: Fine
Flop: C/C or C/R, either works for me. I prefer the latter because I hate min bets and I don't like the SD but either is fine.
Turn: Are you that scared of A8 or A9 or am I missing something? Any ace plays it the same way and you're beating most of them. The pot's not going to get huge all of a sudden, I just check call the whole thing down.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
love it when people who have earned zero respect from me and have likely playedl ess than 500 sngs try to berate me instead of calmly asking questions.

ANYWAYS.. everyone seems very slow to grasp the fact that i never said i was sure i was beat. thats not the point is it? the point is, the risk reward ratio to gain those chips in there isnt worth it with this marginal holding. period. keep arguin tho i like it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the concept alot. In this case, the turn was about as safe as you could hope for, so I can see calling. But I really agree with the strategy of letting go of marginal holdings early even though I'm sure that I'm letting go of some winners.

The bubble play in SNGs is so poor and every chip lost early erodes FE. Plus, I look at it like every chip lost now is really like losing 2 chips when I double up later.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
When you are playing short-stack poker (like a SNG), you are best served by getting chips into the pot whenever you rate to almost certainly have the best hand.

You played this hand like a little sissy on every street.

Irieguy

PS- The strategy trend on this forum seems to have evolved to the point where most people would advocate checking the BB with hands as strong as AK and folding top pair through levels 1-3, so that you are still alive to be in a position where you are forced to open push with 10-8s 5-handed with 5 BBs. I think this type of approach to SNGs worked much better a year or so ago... and even then it still wasn't as good as extracting maximum value at every level.

[/ QUOTE ]

irie get on aim im about to tear u a new one. holla

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When you are playing short-stack poker (like a SNG), you are best served by getting chips into the pot whenever you rate to almost certainly have the best hand.

You played this hand like a little sissy on every street.

Irieguy

PS- The strategy trend on this forum seems to have evolved to the point where most people would advocate checking the BB with hands as strong as AK and folding top pair through levels 1-3, so that you are still alive to be in a position where you are forced to open push with 10-8s 5-handed with 5 BBs. I think this type of approach to SNGs worked much better a year or so ago... and even then it still wasn't as good as extracting maximum value at every level.

[/ QUOTE ]

irie get on aim im about to tear u a new one. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHAHA no post it here I want to see this. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bluewilde]

I appreciate your point about risk-reward ratio with marginal hands, and agree that if you save enough chips for the later rounds your opponents' weaknesses make your actual cards a secondary issue. Still, I would like to know what flops you continue with? By the logic of avoiding marginal hands, I would just muck AJ preflop (as I tend to do). I suppose the difference here is that you're SB? If not, I can't help but think that if you are only looking for a J-high unconnected, unsuited and otherwise safe flop, that entering the pot initially will be a losing wager.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

edit.. as for why i call the flop? are u kidding? why is everyone scared to see a turn? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

What turn is going to make you want to continue with this hand? A J? Gives you two pair, but also opens the doors to a fair number of draws that are realistic coming from this many limpers. I'm guessing an A coming isn't going to make you feel much better, either. The turn comes about as blank as it can and you're check folding. In this situation, I guess I don't really see the point of continuing past the flop if you're going to take this approach to the hand.

I'm probably leading on the turn, and if I get raised, then I'm done with it.

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
I just check call the whole thing down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. From the 55s I've been playing, I find that people like to take a stab at the pot a lot more than they do at lower levels. (Well at the lower levels, they'll push when they're 'taking a stab'), but I find these bets to be easy to call down.

It's not a whole lot of stack you lose. And if he's on a bluff, or a bad ace, there's a good chance he'll check the river behind you.

[FatalError]

better question

why are you playing 55's

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
better question

why are you playing 55's

[/ QUOTE ]

combination of things.. too many vegas trips, im rusty cuz i havent played in over 2 weeks, im poor cuz of too many vegas trips.. medical and car insurance.. bills.. dont really wanna deal with 10k downswings.. ive always destroyed 55s.. haha, i duno, im there for a lil while though. no stress poker is the nuts. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

edit.. as for why i call the flop? are u kidding? why is everyone scared to see a turn? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

What turn is going to make you want to continue with this hand? A J? Gives you two pair, but also opens the doors to a fair number of draws that are realistic coming from this many limpers. I'm guessing an A coming isn't going to make you feel much better, either. The turn comes about as blank as it can and you're check folding. In this situation, I guess I don't really see the point of continuing past the flop if you're going to take this approach to the hand.

I'm probably leading on the turn, and if I get raised, then I'm done with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

jeeeez.. yall gotta learn to open up yer minds. im not always just calling to improve my hand. have yall never played a NL cash game or a mtt before? holla

[Unarmed]

Enlighten me man, I'm serious. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Because from Villain's perspective I see two guys check call a min bet on the flop and check the turn to me. I need two cards and a pulse to throw out 60 chips.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
By the logic of avoiding marginal hands, I would just muck AJ preflop (as I tend to do). I suppose the difference here is that you're SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

umm, yea, its 5 chips to call. im getting like 21509815918509 to 1. autocall. as for hands im looking for? its more about situations. holla

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

jeeeez.. yall gotta learn to open up yer minds. im not always just calling to improve my hand. have yall never played a NL cash game or a mtt before? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see your point. You're calling hoping that there'll be no more bets so you can win a miniscule pot with top pair good kicker? It seems kind of unlikely that there's going to be no more betting through the hand. You're calling to show that you won't fold to a minbet, just a minbet followed by more turn action? My mind is open, just say something.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Enlighten me man, I'm serious. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Because from Villain's perspective I see two guys check call a min bet on the flop and check the turn to me. I need two cards and a pulse to throw out 60 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, YOU do. however, LOTS Of people slow down if they only have an ace after betting and getting two calls. a turn bet that looks significantly stronger can mean quite a bit of strength. thing is, even if it DOESNT, i dont really care.. were back to the risk reward thing again. holla

[The Yugoslavian]

I take pretty much the same/similar line to UMTerp.

I dunno wtf you're doing folding on the turn here.

Another line that may be good is check/raising the flop for value to maybe t75 or to let your opponent define his/her hand further. If called you can continue to bet for value, although I'd rather just call down my opponent as I'm OOP.

Yugoslav

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
I take pretty much the same/similar line to UMTerp.

I dunno wtf you're doing folding on the turn here.

Another line that may be good is check/raising the flop for value to maybe t75 or to let your opponent define his/her hand further. If called you can continue to bet for value, although I'd rather just call down my opponent as I'm OOP.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

im not throwing away chips on the turn.. thats what im doing. yes, this hand in particular looks extremely weak tight, and to people that know nothing about my game, would probably think im a knob. however, a lot of my game consists of making plays to pick up LOTS of pots in the CORRECT SITUATIONS. this is not one such situations. holla

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Enlighten me man, I'm serious. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Because from Villain's perspective I see two guys check call a min bet on the flop and check the turn to me. I need two cards and a pulse to throw out 60 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, YOU do. however, LOTS Of people slow down if they only have an ace after betting and getting two calls. a turn bet that looks significantly stronger can mean quite a bit of strength. thing is, even if it DOESNT, i dont really care.. were back to the risk reward thing again. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree man, escalating bets normally want calls. But honestly, this could mean ANY ace. I really don't agree that an ace is getting scared into cheking behind on the turn here. He has an ace! AN ACE DAMMIT!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
a lot of my game consists of making plays to pick up LOTS of pots in the CORRECT SITUATIONS. this is not one such situations. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

You know this, but if most of your value calls end up being correct you're probably not calling enough.

[SlackerMcFly]

I think that I see the problem in calling or raising the turn:

It is a miniscule pot to win, but the risk of losing 120 or more chips is very high. No reason this early to gamble.

The turn is a Diamond (a 2 of any other suit couldn't possibly help Villain and he would have checked).

The bet here tells me that he at least has AdXd and wants a smaller Ace to bet. He is well ahead with any ace in his mind, and now has 9 additional outs to hit a flush.

Hero doesn't improve, nor does he pick up any way to improve on the river.

Fold to the t60 and move on.

SlackerMcNoob

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
LOTS of pots in the CORRECT SITUATIONS

[/ QUOTE ]

Like, for instance, PaiGow Poker where you are a 3.75% dog, or risking your entire "real" BR on a BJ coinflip, or spending allnight PM'ing some ragass-polesucker /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LOTS of pots in the CORRECT SITUATIONS

[/ QUOTE ]

Like, for instance, PaiGow Poker where you are a 3.75% dog, or risking your entire "real" BR on a BJ coinflip, or spending allnight PM'ing some ragass-polesucker /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

OH SNAP!

[Apathy]

btw I never feel like I should respond to these threads as I have already discussed the hand but my basic view is that you must check raise the flop or call and bet out the turn. I have not yet been convinced otherwise by Rap (nor have I been torn a "new one", perhaps that is reserved for irie /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
against that mini bet I would probably checkraise the flop. You're usually ahead here, and $55 donkeys are still calling a checkraise with hands a lot weaker than AJ here.

[/ QUOTE ]

It kinds of sucks when you get called and you are now out of position on the turn in a biggish pot. Damn.

edit: Actually, you can make a decent c/r and the pot doesn't have to get *that* big. But what's your plan when you get called?

[SlackerMcFly]

[ QUOTE ]
or spending allnight PM'ing some ragass-polesucker who sings like a wounded moose /images/graemlins/confused.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
btw I never feel like I should respond to these threads as I have already discussed the hand but my basic view is that you must check raise the flop or call and bet out the turn. I have not yet been convinced otherwise by Rap (nor have I been torn a "new one", perhaps that is reserved for irie /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]

its its only for irie. i gotta get worked up before i start tearin new ones. go play yer 215s where its necessary to push small edges, and you dont have the luxury of finding better spots. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LOTS of pots in the CORRECT SITUATIONS

[/ QUOTE ]

Like, for instance, PaiGow Poker where you are a 3.75% dog, or risking your entire "real" BR on a BJ coinflip, or spending allnight PM'ing some ragass-polesucker /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

were talking about poker grampah, not my other leaks.. and for the record, that skrippa kept txting ME, called ME, and i just played along.. also, in the pai gow at COMMERECE, in LA, not VEGAS, when i was betting BANK every time, im not a 3.75% dog. gg. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a lot of my game consists of making plays to pick up LOTS of pots in the CORRECT SITUATIONS. this is not one such situations. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

You know this, but if most of your value calls end up being correct you're probably not calling enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

damnit yer still missin the point. THINK!!!! im not making a flop call for value, its for info. if he comes again hard on the turn, i can get away with minimal risk. i SEE things.

as for calling not enough.. well yea, 5 and 6 handed i probably fold too many hands when pushed into, but no1 there will be raising more against those weak tighties, so it more than makes up for it. im still trying to figure out the ideal push to call ratio for me at the 55s. another couple days should do it..

btw, uve turned into a very good player in the last 3 months unarmed, im pleased /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
btw I always feel like I should respond to these threads eventhough I have already discussed similar hands but my basic view is that you must check raise the flop or call and bet out the turn. I have not yet been convinced otherwise by Rap (nor have I been torn a "new one", perhaps that is reserved for irie /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP, FYP, FYP, FYP, FYP, FYP, FYP
http://www.xpenguin.com/animation.gif
FYP, FYP, FYP, FYP, FYP, FYP, FYP

[raptor517]

meh, threads only getting 2 hits a minute now, guess i better post results..

#Game No : 2506106721
***** Hand History for Game 2506106721 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:14690139 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Tuesday, August 09, 16:40:54 EDT 2005
Table Table 11900 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 6: hold___fold ( $1055 )
Seat 3: Itachi86 ( $985 )
Seat 5: lanford ( $1550 )
Seat 10: eddyk4 ( $980 )
Seat 7: Domanooch ( $975 )
Seat 2: MrSneakers ( $730 )
Seat 8: cubanacan ( $930 )
Seat 1: CATCH8 ( $795 )
Seat 9: TopSet69 ( $1045 )
Seat 4: HeelofTar ( $955 )
Trny:14690139 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Itachi86 [ As Js ]
lanford folds.
hold___fold folds.
Domanooch folds.
cubanacan folds.
TopSet69 folds.
eddyk4 calls [15].
CATCH8 calls [15].
MrSneakers folds.
>You have options at Table 12059 Table!.
Itachi86 calls [5].
HeelofTar checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8s, 9d, Ac ]
Itachi86 checks.
HeelofTar checks.
eddyk4 bets [15].
CATCH8 folds.
Itachi86 calls [15].
HeelofTar calls [15].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2d ]
Itachi86 checks.
HeelofTar checks.
>You have options at Table 12059 Table!.
eddyk4 bets [60].
Itachi86 folds.
HeelofTar calls [60].
** Dealing River ** [ Tc ]
HeelofTar checks.
eddyk4 bets [125].
HeelofTar raises [350].
eddyk4 calls [225].
HeelofTar shows [ 7d, 6s ] a straight, six to ten.
eddyk4 doesn't show [ 9s, 8d ] two pairs, nines and eights.
HeelofTar wins 925 chips from the main pot with a straight, six to ten.

anyways, the results are pretty much meaningless to me, as i try to make the best play regardless of what happens. buuuuuut.. i duno, i trust my feelings more than most, and they are nice to me more often than not.. intuition is a powerful ally in the game of poker.

also, im not trying to justify my argument with results. i still think its the best line to take even if he flipped over A5. holla

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw I always feel like I should respond to these threads eventhough I have already discussed similar hands but my basic view is that you must check raise the flop or call and bet out the turn. I have not yet been convinced otherwise by Rap (nor have I been torn a "new one", perhaps that is reserved for irie /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP, FYP, FYP, FYP, FYP, FYP, FYP

FYP, FYP, FYP, FYP, FYP, FYP, FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf? I mean I actually discussed THIS hand already, and I usually don't respond to these threads where I have done that.

edit: took out the annoying gif.

[microbet]

As far as I could tell your only previous post in this thread had been "OH, SNAP."

Don't make me invade Canada!!!

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as I could tell your only previous post in this thread had been "OH, SNAP."

[/ QUOTE ]

Presumably he means he discussed it with raptor over IM or something like that.

[microbet]

Could be. Obvi, I was just suggesting that we would benefit from Apathy's thoughts. I'm not sure whether my saying that is nice or the fact that I thought it was necessary to say it is not, but just in case, I'll add an anti-canada joke.

MAN:
an animal so lost in rapturous contemplation of what he thinks he is as to overlook what he indubitably ought to be. His chief occupation is extermination of other animals and his own species, which, however, multiplies with such insistent rapidity as to infest the whole habitable earth and Canada.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As far as I could tell your only previous post in this thread had been "OH, SNAP."

[/ QUOTE ]

Presumably he means he discussed it with raptor over IM or something like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes i talk with many 2+2ers on aim for more in depth analysis and such, apathy is one such poster. holla

I agree with how you played it raptor....

But for the sake of discussion, how do you play this hand if you were on the button? Facing the same action.

[Newt_Buggs]

check-call the turn. If he checks behind, lead out on the river, if he bets the turn and bets again on the river possibly fold.

[Jay36489]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand. If you just refuse to play AJ then fold it pre-flop. If you can't play it with this flop what the hell are you doing in the hand. You've clearly decided that villian has an AK,AQ,set or 2 pair and carefully eliminated all other possibilities through some unknown power. Insight into the use of this power would be appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

i love it when people who have earned zero respect from me and have likely playedl ess than 500 sngs try to berate me instead of calmly asking questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sound like the people curtains has been running into over at MTT... (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=3034313 &Forum=f22&Words=-Re%3A&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=3034313&Search=tr ue&where=sub&Name=2855&daterange=1&newerval=1&newe rtype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post3034313 )

[johnnybeef]

alright, here is my analysis...people rarely open limp ak or aq in the 55s, and because the pot is not big, i dont see the second limper limping ak or aq either. you are likely ahead, so forchrisakes lead the flop and get some information back. the pot is still very small, so it will be easy to get away from.

[LotsOfOuts69]

Damn raptor, didn't even see you at my table. If I told you I had 2 hearts on this hand would you have folded pre-flop?

#Game No : 2506241040
***** Hand History for Game 2506241040 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:14690139 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Tuesday, August 09, 17:07:49 EDT 2005
Table Table 11900 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 1: CATCH8 ( $1135 )
Seat 2: MrSneakers ( $810 )
Seat 3: Itachi86 ( $760 )
Seat 4: HeelofTar ( $2800 )
Seat 6: hold___fold ( $1650 )
Seat 7: Domanooch ( $770 )
Seat 9: TopSet69 ( $2075 )
Trny:14690139 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to TopSet69 [ 7h 2h ]
>You have options at Table 12976 Table!.
CATCH8 calls [100].
MrSneakers folds.
Itachi86 is all-In [760]
HeelofTar folds.
>You have options at Table 14536 Table!.
>You have options at Table 12976 Table!.
>You have options at Table 12976 Table!.
>You have options at Table 14536 Table!.
hold___fold calls [760].
Domanooch folds.
TopSet69 folds.
CATCH8 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4c, 2d, Ts ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jd ]
** Dealing River ** [ 3h ]
Itachi86 shows [ Ah, Qh ] high card ace.
hold___fold shows [ Jh, Js ] three of a kind, jacks.
hold___fold wins 1770 chips from the main pot with three of a kind, jacks.
Itachi86 finished in seventh place.
Itachi86 has left the table.
Game #2506245378 starts.

I won this tourny, but you got 1% of my rake.

--LoO

[lastchance]

Meh, I really don't like it. The turn should be at least worth check-calling with the blank. I agree with Unarmed. Villains could have any ace, and a J kicker should be good here. I like pushing the small edges, and you've got a pretty nice edge here, which can lead to a bigger stack L4 for more bullying.

Checking flop is an interesting idea that works. I like the check-call line a lot, need to use it more.

[petvan]

Myself, I pop the flop to 100 and dump if I get resistence. Like to know where I am.

Then again, on my best I do to the 30's what you do to the 200's steadily. Yikes!!

P

[faquewdikhed]

did anyone mention bad position in an unraised 4way pot?

[astarck]

From what I can tell by your posts in this thread you played this hand to gain information about your opponents so you can get into situations later with this knowledge and destroy them for TONS of chips. You weren't necessarily playing this hand in order to make the best hand and win a few meaningless chips this early in the SNG.

I hope I'm at least somewhat correct here??

What I don't understand is that if I am correct and this hand was strictly about information why not raise preflop? You have two late position limpers who have signaled they are holding garbage and want to try to see a flop and if you are looking for information which information is more important: How they play postflop (which will occur less and less frequently as blinds get higher), or how weak they are preflop (and preflop play obviously becomes more prominent near the bubble).

To me, noticing that they limp in with garbage and fold with it would probably help me more later if they limp with higher blinds.

[adanthar]

So basically, you gave a bunch of chips away to something like KT, J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, or maybe Ax. Yuck.

Where's the risk that you're talking about? I really don't see it, and I also don't see why you're terrified of this hand simply because there's an 8 and a 9 on the board at the same time.

You don't have that big of an edge when you push on the bubble BTW, even if you do it properly. You basically have somewhere in between a 10-20% ROI depending on which thousand SNG chunk you're playing, right? Well, just like everybody else, your tenths and ninths add up to 5% of your finishes (you know where this goes from here so I'm not expanding on it). The bubble advantage simply isn't all that large unless you get there with chips.

edit: OK, it was a badly played bottom 2 instead. But even here you still don't lose the 125 on the river because the pot is 3 way and you can fold when the T hits. I dunno, I really don't like this.

[lacky]

i'm tired from riding a horse all day. all i read was the op and irie's responce. I'm with irie 100%, but I like the average player being weak tight in early play, it makes the game so much easier for me. therefore I shut up a while ago, I will make an exception for you though raptor.

You played this hand like a little sissy on every street.

i concur.

Steve

[fluorescenthippo]

wow ive been playing the 55s for awhile now and the players still suck enough for me to bet this flop and usually the turn. but maybe i have no idea what im talking about

[golfcchs]

I like your play because the bb is still in the hand, but if you had been in the bb and everyone folds to the villians flop bet would you play it differently?

[Pokerscott]

You could always drop down to the 33s or 22s. That way your late game advantage would be so large you could pre-flop dump all but AA in levels 1-4 with confidence.

Pokerscott

Hey Raptor,

This may not be a really common situation, but what if the bet on the turn was t125 into a t105 pot? Does this change your play at all? I feel that the t60 bet is suspicious and looking for people that are drawing or playing that ace. A t125 bet makes me think it's a fish trying to take down a pot without resistance.

Thoughts?

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
You could always drop down to the 33s or 22s. That way your late game advantage would be so large you could pre-flop dump all but AA in levels 1-4 with confidence.

Pokerscott

[/ QUOTE ]

is that a personal attack? seriously. i might have to choke a bit** holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Raptor,

This may not be a really common situation, but what if the bet on the turn was t125 into a t105 pot? Does this change your play at all? I feel that the t60 bet is suspicious and looking for people that are drawing or playing that ace. A t125 bet makes me think it's a fish trying to take down a pot without resistance.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

i overbet the pot with monsters because people think it looks bluffy. therefore, i fold just as fast. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
alright, here is my analysis...people rarely open limp ak or aq in the 55s, and because the pot is not big, i dont see the second limper limping ak or aq either. you are likely ahead, so forchrisakes lead the flop and get some information back. the pot is still very small, so it will be easy to get away from.

[/ QUOTE ]

who said i was worried about AQ or AK? hmm? holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Where's the risk that you're talking about? I really don't see it, and I also don't see why you're terrified of this hand simply because there's an 8 and a 9 on the board at the same time.

[/ QUOTE ]

its not necessarily that i htink my hand sucks here. i def think i have a strong hand in this situation. however, as many people seemingly fail to realize, i have 2309850923 people to act behind me. position is power in NL. thats the risk right there, im oop. i have to put in a LOT of chips to get the draws out. people just dont fold enough to make it worth it to me. when they get there, i keep losing chips. im perfectly find giving this 60 chip pot or whatever to someone else. by all means, enjoy it by risking 150 chips to get it. holla

[lastchance]

On the turn, there's only 2 opponents left. That's 2358023 people. That's 2. You don't need to invest a helluva lot to win this pot.

You can check-call down, and catch missed draws and bluffing, as well as weaker aces for helluva lot more than 60 chips.

You can check-raise and shut down from there, t75.

It's not about just winning t60, because this hand is worth value-betting/value-calling.

Your turn fold was absolutely ridiculous, and completely sucked.

Knowing you have the best hand more than 50% of the time and folding it here is really, really bad poker.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
did anyone mention bad position in an unraised 4way pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

quite possibly the most important aspect of this hand.. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, there's only 2 opponents left. That's 2358023 people. That's 2. You don't need to invest a helluva lot to win this pot.

You can check-call down, and catch missed draws and bluffing, as well as weaker aces for helluva lot more than 60 chips.

You can check-raise and shut down from there, t75.

It's not about just winning t60, because this hand is worth value-betting/value-calling.

Your turn fold was absolutely ridiculous, and completely sucked.

Knowing you have the best hand more than 50% of the time and folding it here is really, really bad poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

you know? yer right, im just a really bad player with no idea what he is doing. you all are victorious once more. holla

[Pokerscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You could always drop down to the 33s or 22s. That way your late game advantage would be so large you could pre-flop dump all but AA in levels 1-4 with confidence.

Pokerscott

[/ QUOTE ]
is that a personal attack? seriously. i might have to choke a bit** holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Personal attack??? Consider the strategy first...

open yer mind for just a minute, think broadly, think openly, and you will become better.

Holla

Pokerscott

[adanthar]

Dude, come on. You know better than to fold a 56/44 or whatever PF. Are you good here (and on the river) a combined 56%? Almost definitely, so why fold?

[lastchance]

I said nothing about your skill as a player. After all, you're beating the $55's, which is more than 90% of the population, and most 2+2ers can say.

But, based on the way you're thinking about this hand (I want to avoid risk now to exploit an edge later) just seems a bit Hellmuthian to me, and from everything I've learned on 2+2, and playing myself, folding this isn't profitable, while most of my lines would have been.

[curtains]

For whats its worth I would not play this way. I would check the flop, and raise the min bet to 75. I would then bet out about 150 on the turn if I was called on the flop. I would then check the river most cards and call most bets at that point.

Whether this is good or not I have no idea, but it's what I usually do.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]

For whats its worth I would not play this way. I would check the flop, and raise the min bet to 75. I would then bet out about 150 on the turn if I was called on the flop. I would then check the river most cards and call most bets at that point.

Whether this is good or not I have no idea, but it's what I usually do.

[/ QUOTE ]

also, for the record.. in a 215, i check raise to around 75 about 99% of the time. im not going to get into why right now as to why i play it diff. and again, i hate check raising this flop in a 55. in a 215, standard imo. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You could always drop down to the 33s or 22s. That way your late game advantage would be so large you could pre-flop dump all but AA in levels 1-4 with confidence.

Pokerscott

[/ QUOTE ]
is that a personal attack? seriously. i might have to choke a bit** holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Personal attack??? Consider the strategy first...

open yer mind for just a minute, think broadly, think openly, and you will become better.

Holla

Pokerscott

[/ QUOTE ]

who the **** are you other than a jealous piece of trash that is upset some kid can make more money in a week than your pathetic self working hard in 3 months. i dont know you, i have no respect for you, and until you prove to me you have any game at all, i will not put up with being shat on. irie, lacky, apathy, curtains, all them i talk to regularly and can call me a donk all they want. adanthar too, i dont talk to him as much but he has my respect. not you. earn some respect first. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, come on. You know better than to fold a 56/44 or whatever PF. Are you good here (and on the river) a combined 56%? Almost definitely, so why fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

i actually dont think so. that should be obvious by the way i played it. hence the fold. holla

[TT_fold]

The idea of any post should be to generate discussion, right Raptor?

But if you are just going to berate all your critics and remind them that you've played more SNGs than many of them put together, then why bother posting?

Personally, I find this hand quite interesting; your stance, however, is overly one-sided.

Irieguy's response about that "better spot" being a chance to push T8s 5-handed is more correct than you seem to think. cEV and $EV in level 1 are pretty close.... this idea of waiting for a better spot is negated by the fact that acquiring a big stack GIVES you the opportunity to exploit those better spots. Need I link to a Gigabet post?

Bad position? Meh. You're still getting generous odds to call here, and based on this opponent's betting pattern, he isn't going to pot a blank river with A3 and put you to a difficult decision. If he does have a weak ace, he'll either check behind or put in another 1/4-1/3 pot bet.

I know that both you and I like to play more than 8 tables at once. Even though you had a "feeling" you were beat here, how reliable could your read be with so many tables open?

Furthermore (and maybe I am wrong on this point), you imply that this play was made partly for information. But will you realistically be able to apply any of this information on the bubble? I see two major reasons why you won't be able to:
<ul type="square"> You have too many tables open to remember which opponent limped with 76o in level 1 and called small bets to river a miracle straight You can infer very little about how your opponents play the later levels (where you say your edge is greatest) from their level 1 play. Yes, they're fish, but are they the type of fish who tighten up late in an effort to sneak into the money, or the type who spite call you on the bubble with T9o? There's a major difference between these two types of players, and the information you just paid for does not help if there's no way to apply it. Heck, you could have used Poker Prophecy to measure how fishy your opponents are. [/list]

I'd love to hear back from you; I know you are a huge winner but your posts reek of complacency, which is a dangerous thing.

[Pokerscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You could always drop down to the 33s or 22s. That way your late game advantage would be so large you could pre-flop dump all but AA in levels 1-4 with confidence.

Pokerscott

[/ QUOTE ]
is that a personal attack? seriously. i might have to choke a bit** holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Personal attack??? Consider the strategy first...

open yer mind for just a minute, think broadly, think openly, and you will become better.

Holla

Pokerscott

[/ QUOTE ]

who the **** are you other than a jealous piece of trash that is upset some kid can make more money in a week than your pathetic self working hard in 3 months. i dont know you, i have no respect for you, and until you prove to me you have any game at all, i will not put up with being shat on. irie, lacky, apathy, curtains, all them i talk to regularly and can call me a donk all they want. not you. earn some respect first. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

The strategy and the words sounded a little pompous did they? Hmm there is a lesson in there somewhere. Alright, I've had my fun. Get over yourself and you will do better imho.

Continue your rant and continue to dismiss valid arguments and discussions with "expand your mind!" if you must. It won't help though.

Pokerscott

ps look-up ad hominem

[Jay36489]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You could always drop down to the 33s or 22s. That way your late game advantage would be so large you could pre-flop dump all but AA in levels 1-4 with confidence.

Pokerscott

[/ QUOTE ]
is that a personal attack? seriously. i might have to choke a bit** holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Personal attack??? Consider the strategy first...

open yer mind for just a minute, think broadly, think openly, and you will become better.

Holla

Pokerscott

[/ QUOTE ]

who the **** are you other than a jealous piece of trash that is upset some kid can make more money in a week than your pathetic self working hard in 3 months. i dont know you, i have no respect for you, and until you prove to me you have any game at all, i will not put up with being shat on. irie, lacky, apathy, curtains, all them i talk to regularly and can call me a donk all they want. adanthar too, i dont talk to him as much but he has my respect. not you. earn some respect first. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that is a personal attack! You have attacked everyone who has disagreed with you except irie, lacky, etc, even though they are all saying the same thing. That is ridiculous, and I will again point you to the thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=singletable&amp;Number=3034313 &amp;Forum=f22&amp;Words=-Re%3A&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Main=3034313&amp;Search=tr ue&amp;where=sub&amp;Name=2855&amp;daterange=1&amp;newerval=1&amp;newe rtype=y&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyprev=#Post3034313 ) where this was discussed while you were gone...

[destroBU]

Regardless of whether you are right or wrong, your posting in this thread has been condescending to say the least. This tends to rub people the wrong way.

You don't need to know me or respect my skills as a poker player to realize this point has merit.

[The Yugoslavian]

Raptor,

You know I love ya man......but for all that is holy and sacred in this forum please just sit back and relax.

Oh, this should help and make it all better:

http://bradvei2.webcindario.com/ariadne-artiles/bradvei-ariadne-artiles-dt03.jpg


/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Yugoslav

[citanul]

that one is nearly perfect. who is that?

citanul

[adanthar]

ehhhh...I don't remember enough about the 55's to know what a minbet/decent bet combo means there, but isn't that a 20% flush draw and/or a ten really often?

PS: Someone tell me that girl has done porn pls

[citanul]

women that look that good don't do porn. they get paid to take pictures where they are standing nowhere near men.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You could always drop down to the 33s or 22s. That way your late game advantage would be so large you could pre-flop dump all but AA in levels 1-4 with confidence.

Pokerscott

[/ QUOTE ]
is that a personal attack? seriously. i might have to choke a bit** holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Personal attack??? Consider the strategy first...

open yer mind for just a minute, think broadly, think openly, and you will become better.

Holla

Pokerscott

[/ QUOTE ]

who the **** are you other than a jealous piece of trash that is upset some kid can make more money in a week than your pathetic self working hard in 3 months. i dont know you, i have no respect for you, and until you prove to me you have any game at all, i will not put up with being shat on. irie, lacky, apathy, curtains, all them i talk to regularly and can call me a donk all they want. not you. earn some respect first. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

The strategy and the words sounded a little pompous did they? Hmm there is a lesson in there somewhere. Alright, I've had my fun. Get over yourself and you will do better imho.

Continue your rant and continue to dismiss valid arguments and discussions with "expand your mind!" if you must. It won't help though.

Pokerscott

ps look-up ad hominem

[/ QUOTE ]

get over myself? do trust, i am one of the most down to earth people you will ever meet in real life, and one of the most realistic about his abilities. i dont claim to be god. i claim to like the way i played my hand, and i will defend it as such. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of whether you are right or wrong, your posting in this thread has been condescending to say the least. This tends to rub people the wrong way.

You don't need to know me or respect my skills as a poker player to realize this point has merit.

[/ QUOTE ]

dear GOD. i said in a 215 my standard play is a check raise. obv i give it merit. im an agressive person by nature. i made my post. i made the play. and i will defend it to the death. if i reach resistance, i will fight it. if it fights back, i will keep fighting. thats my style. ill back down when proven wrong. i havent been. holla

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
PS: Someone tell me that girl has done porn pls


[/ QUOTE ]

she has, but the guy i hired to film us doesnt know a camera from his [censored]...

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
women that look that good don't do porn. they get paid to take pictures where they are standing nowhere near men.

[/ QUOTE ]

who said anything about getting paid? see above.

[adanthar]

You know, I normally do not give a rat's ass about celebrities or airbrushed photos, but dear God that girl is so [censored] hot even in the other pics on her site.

So anyway, this thread is totally +EV.

[Jay36489]

Dreaming about girls you don't have a shot with is -EV I believe. Not that that will stop me or anything...

[destroBU]

[ QUOTE ]

dear GOD. i said in a 215 my standard play is a check raise. obv i give it merit. im an agressive person by nature. i made my post. i made the play. and i will defend it to the death. if i reach resistance, i will fight it. if it fights back, i will keep fighting. thats my style. ill back down when proven wrong. i havent been. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. It's almost as if you completely ignored my post, which had basically nothing to do with poker, and everything to do with how abrasive and condescending you've been in this thread.

[raptor517]

ok, first off, about the check raise.. do you REALLY think i dont HONESTLY understand the reasoning and benefits of making a check raise to around 75 here? i mean seriously people. do you honestly think i havent taken apart this hand already, and looked at every option provided?

where in my arguments, did i ever say anyone was completely wrong. (maybe i did at some point, show me please if i did..). yes, i argue. yes, im aggressive. thats my style. it works for me. i posted this hand to START controversy. thats why i make threads like this. this is NOT the first one.

as far as the reputation post? trust me, i have been berated again and again for unorthodox plays. thats fine, ill defend them. if i ever make a play i like, i will back it up to the bitter end until slapped in the face by an obvious better play. until i reach that point, i will simply refuse to back down. tragic flaw, sure, but i dont dislike it at all.

also, as far as respect goes, i feel like i have at least somewhat earned it. i dont berate noobs too often unless they blatently attack me. i dont give bad advice. i dont make useless threads. i didnt get whatever 'respect' i have by offering bad advice, wasting peoples time, and simply talking crap i cant back up.

anyone who thinks i have an inflated ego? think again. maybe 3 months ago i had an inflated ego. i was brought back to earth after a couple vegas trips. thats all it took. i know where i stand in the poker world, and especially in the sng world. im a good, winning player, that does best massive multitabling medium stakes sngs.

again, let me say that the entire reason of creating this thread was to generate arguments. i revel in it. it puts me in the best frame of mind for thinking i can possibly be in. it causes my brain to perform at a much higher level than normal, for some sick reason. if u disagree with me, fine, i dont mind at all, even my so called 'friends' that i 'dont argue' with challenge me constantly. thats what makes us all better. i dont go off on them on the forum mainly because i talk to all of them on aim about things like this anyway.

ok, i dont really know what else to say, ill go read more posts and try to respond. thanks for makin it fun so far, i got plenty of juice left /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

dear GOD. i said in a 215 my standard play is a check raise. obv i give it merit. im an agressive person by nature. i made my post. i made the play. and i will defend it to the death. if i reach resistance, i will fight it. if it fights back, i will keep fighting. thats my style. ill back down when proven wrong. i havent been. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. It's almost as if you completely ignored my post, which had basically nothing to do with poker, and everything to do with how abrasive and condescending you've been in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok so u call me condescending again. flip it around and look at what people have been saying to me. sure, im abrasive, ok, thats how i argue. im not talking down to anyone in my mind. maybe it comes off that way, and now that i actually read it, it does. well, fine, ill bite. i apologize for offending anyone. if you got offended though, i dont think you should be posting on a forum like this. i dont get offended easy, and love being challenged. and no, i didnt ignore yer post, i responded in a way i saw fit. thankyou. holla

[lastchance]

I said it.

This raise and the mentality behind it is completely wrong. I really don't think that minbetter couldn't have an ace here, or flush draw, and caller could have anything. AJ is good at least 56% of the time here. You can call for bluffing value, or raise it. Both are more +EV then folding TPGK on a board like that.

[vinyard]

[ QUOTE ]
ok, first off, about the check raise.. do you REALLY think i dont HONESTLY understand the reasoning and benefits of making a check raise to around 75 here? i mean seriously people. do you honestly think i havent taken apart this hand already, and looked at every option provided?

[/ QUOTE ]
If you did and dismissed it you are at least a coinflip to be wrong. IMHO, you play in this hand from round to round is inconsistent.

[ QUOTE ]
i posted this hand to START controversy. thats why i make threads like this. this is NOT the first one.

[/ QUOTE ]
yep. And those of us that are still learning the game appreciate your effort. And I like starting controversy as a reason to originate a thread. It sure seems, however, that you are not responding reasonably to the criticism that was offered to you as a consequence of the controvery you *chose* to create.

Look, you're clearly a brillaint poker player but, well, your interpersonal skills suck ass. At least in writing. Either you wanted a flame war or you didn't. If its the latter you should have responded to the criticisms (which you knew would come) as an adult. If its the former, none of this should bother you.

[/ QUOTE ]

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Irieguy's response about that "better spot" being a chance to push T8s 5-handed is more correct than you seem to think. cEV and $EV in level 1 are pretty close.... this idea of waiting for a better spot is negated by the fact that acquiring a big stack GIVES you the opportunity to exploit those better spots. Need I link to a Gigabet post?

[/ QUOTE ]

well, as far as that goes, i def see the benefit in having more chips for the bubble blah blah that kinda thing. however, to GET those chips, is it worth risking bringing yerself down to 850 chips to be at 1100ish? maybe.. thats for another day though..

[ QUOTE ]
I know that both you and I like to play more than 8 tables at once. Even though you had a "feeling" you were beat here, how reliable could your read be with so many tables open?


[/ QUOTE ]

meh, i duno, i notice things. i sit far back and try to take in everything.. if that makes sense. i try to focuse on every hand that is being played, no matter how many there are. doesnt always work, but i try to take in as much as i can..

[ QUOTE ]
You have too many tables open to remember which opponent limped with 76o in level 1 and called small bets to river a miracle straight

[/ QUOTE ]

i make tiny little notes every time i see something like that. its sick really, a habit but i like it. usher does the same thing.. though im not sure as much anymore.

[ QUOTE ]
You can infer very little about how your opponents play the later levels (where you say your edge is greatest) from their level 1 play. Yes, they're fish, but are they the type of fish who tighten up late in an effort to sneak into the money, or the type who spite call you on the bubble with T9o? There's a major difference between these two types of players, and the information you just paid for does not help if there's no way to apply it. Heck, you could have used Poker Prophecy to measure how fishy your opponents are.


[/ QUOTE ]

i really like this point.. as its VERY hard to infer how someone will play late game. loose people playing lots of hands early, might actually tighten up late because they are not sure how to play correctly. or the tighties early that turn into push bots late.

[ QUOTE ]
I know you are a huge winner but your posts reek of complacency, which is a dangerous thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

ask anyone that has met me in real life. im not complacent. i do have a gambling problem, lol, but thats quickly getting fixed after i realized how much i actually threw away in vegas..

good post. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
If its the latter you should have responded to the criticisms (which you knew would come) as an adult. If its the former, none of this should bother you.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, im not exactly a full blown adult yet, still kid like tendencies and such..

also, as for being bothered? im not bothered really, just irritated my view isnt even getting ANY agreements. usually more than one person sees some merit in it.. maybe i actually am bothered.. who knows.

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO, you play in this hand from round to round is inconsistent.

[/ QUOTE ]

EXCELLENT! yer absolutely right /images/graemlins/wink.gif i do play inconsistently. if i didnt, i wouldnt be that much of a player because people would know exactly where i was at every time. good to mix it up. holla

[destroBU]

[ QUOTE ]

ok so u call me condescending again. flip it around and look at what people have been saying to me. sure, im abrasive, ok, thats how i argue. im not talking down to anyone in my mind. maybe it comes off that way, and now that i actually read it, it does. well, fine, ill bite. i apologize for offending anyone. if you got offended though, i dont think you should be posting on a forum like this. i dont get offended easy, and love being challenged. and no, i didnt ignore yer post, i responded in a way i saw fit. thankyou. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't offended at all, I was just trying to show you why you were getting the kind of responses you were getting from people like pokerscott, lastchance, etc. These people were just responding to the condescending tone, and the way you were berating some people without really explaining why (TT also mentioned this).

Defending your ideas is fine, but the way you were responding in this thread at times was counterproductive, and could piss some people off. That's all I'm saying.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

ok so u call me condescending again. flip it around and look at what people have been saying to me. sure, im abrasive, ok, thats how i argue. im not talking down to anyone in my mind. maybe it comes off that way, and now that i actually read it, it does. well, fine, ill bite. i apologize for offending anyone. if you got offended though, i dont think you should be posting on a forum like this. i dont get offended easy, and love being challenged. and no, i didnt ignore yer post, i responded in a way i saw fit. thankyou. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't offended at all, I was just trying to show you why you were getting the kind of responses you were getting from people like pokerscott, lastchance, etc. These people were just responding to the condescending tone, and the way you were berating some people without really explaining why (TT also mentioned this).

Defending your ideas is fine, but the way you were responding in this thread at times was counterproductive, and could piss some people off. That's all I'm saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

well maybe IIIIIIII got pissed off. EHOT!??%!%!#? ok yea, great, so i argue with a crude tone. they have every right to post whatever they want about me, telling it like it is, telling it like its not, whatever. but if i get jumped on, ill keep jumping too.

my goal in threads like this.. is actually to make people better. most of the hands i post, are NOT the norm. at all. i like to do things differently. if its counterproductive, so be it. however, i think its a great skill to know and recognize how to play in a lot of different styles. what works for me is mixing it up a LOT. i will play hands in an unorthodox fasion. i provide a bit of insight with the hand, and plenty of defense to it. if thats not a good thing, then i will stop. however i thought i was contributing. holl

[tech]

[ QUOTE ]
well, as far as that goes, i def see the benefit in having more chips for the bubble blah blah that kinda thing. however, to GET those chips, is it worth risking bringing yerself down to 850 chips to be at 1100ish? maybe.. thats for another day though..

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that the core of your argument though ... that the risk of losing those chips is not worth the potential gain?

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
well, as far as that goes, i def see the benefit in having more chips for the bubble blah blah that kinda thing. however, to GET those chips, is it worth risking bringing yerself down to 850 chips to be at 1100ish? maybe.. thats for another day though..

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that the core of your argument though ... that the risk of losing those chips is not worth the potential gain?

[/ QUOTE ]

not entirely, but it is a big part yes.. what i was saying was that i didnt want to write 3095803215823 more things about it right now, as i think i covered that point enough already. holla

[vinyard]

[ QUOTE ]

also, as for being bothered? im not bothered really, just irritated my view isnt even getting ANY agreements. usually more than one person sees some merit in it.. maybe i actually am bothered.. who knows.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it's clear that you are bothered. Nothing wrong with that.

[ QUOTE ]
i do play inconsistently. if i didnt, i wouldnt be that much of a player because people would know exactly where i was at every time. good to mix it up. holla

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, Doyle. Holla! I didn't do you the disservice of mocking your adolescent complaints against expected criticism of your post. Treat other posters with respect especially when they can help you learn something. That is, simply, the attitude I have always taken with your posts (which have been incredibly helpful) and you should do the same when you are swimming too far from shore.

[lastchance]

So, why are you folding this hand?

It just doesn't seem optimal. You're going to be ahead here on the river at least 50% of the time, and while there are a bunch of draws out there which makes your showdown hand quite a bit worse than your hand right now, but it's going to be enough to check-call on the end with profit.

This is a +chip EV move, and in L1, that means money. Why call and check-call down?

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
So, why are you folding this hand?

It just doesn't seem optimal. You're going to be ahead here on the river at least 50% of the time, and while there are a bunch of draws out there which makes your showdown hand quite a bit worse than your hand right now, but it's going to be enough to check-call on the end with profit.

This is a +chip EV move, and in L1, that means money. Why call and check-call down?

[/ QUOTE ]

why call and NOT check-call down you mean? well, lets do this, lets CALL the turn bet. then the river puts the 10 out there. you check again, mp cehcks, lp bets 150. you call, mp raises, lp calls, you fold. costs? more than 200 extra chips. if i did anything here that would cost me 200 chips, it would be taking the aggro stance of check raising the flop and 2/3 potting the turn. im not a huge fan of check calling it down, but it does have its uses. this i dont think is one of them. holla

[lastchance]

Like Adanthar said, you don't need to call when the scare card comes out and it's a 3 way pot.

You can probably fold to a T, definitely a 7, maybe a J, Q, 6 or 5, depending on size of bet.

But when the board blanks, you pick up t300 extra that you wouldn't by folding from the pot + calling the extra river bet.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Like Adanthar said, you don't need to call when the scare card comes out and it's a 3 way pot.

You can probably fold to a T, definitely a 7, maybe a J, Q, 6 or 5, depending on size of bet.

But when the board blanks, you pick up t300 extra that you wouldn't by folding from the pot + calling the extra river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

not quite 300.. but something like that.. anyways, i still dont like the check call down at all. i would rather cr it and 2/3 pot the turn. holla

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Like Adanthar said, you don't need to call when the scare card comes out and it's a 3 way pot.

You can probably fold to a T, definitely a 7, maybe a J, Q, 6 or 5, depending on size of bet.

But when the board blanks, you pick up t300 extra that you wouldn't by folding from the pot + calling the extra river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

not quite 300.. but something like that.. anyways, i still dont like the check call down at all. i would rather cr it and 2/3 pot the turn. holla

[/ QUOTE ]
There are a bunch of lines that could work here, I think. It's just that folding the turn to so little strength isn't one of them.

I guess you're folding because of the reverse implied odds on this hand, right?

I think that's the only half-decent reason to fold it, and I still don't know if those odds are enough to lay this down, especially with just one street to go.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
also, as for being bothered? im not bothered really, just irritated my view isnt even getting ANY agreements.

[/ QUOTE ]

Way back on page two, I wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
I like the concept alot. In this case, the turn was about as safe as you could hope for, so I can see calling. But I really agree with the strategy of letting go of marginal holdings early even though I'm sure that I'm letting go of some winners.

The bubble play in SNGs is so poor and every chip lost early erodes FE. Plus, I look at it like every chip lost now is really like losing 2 chips when I double up later.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where's the love, Raptor?

The one thing that I do agree with Raptor on is that, IMO, too many people act like there is only one way to play a hand. Another benefit of taking his approach early is that you can often see what other players are showing down and use that information later.

I am very hesitant to get too attached to a multi-way, unraised pot early in an SNG. While I think that the turn was as safe as could be, I understand Raptor's reasoning behind not wanting to call a turn bet and another probable river bet. Also, there were players yet to act behind him when he decided to fold. While he was likely passing up a +EV spot, it's not like he had some sort of monster hand.

I think people need to realize that there aren't quite as many absolutes in poker as we might think. The pure math plays are absolute (when to push from the SB). Bubble play is pretty much absolute. But in a spot like this, while Raptor may have been passing up a +EV situation, it's not like his play has no merit. People are acting like he folded a set or something, for chrissake.

[raptor517]

yer a sweetie 45. i DO remember you saying that, and i THINK i said something like 'more than one person backing me up' in that post. /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[fnord_too]

Before I read the responses (or at least a couple of them, this damn thread is already three pages), I think you have to lead that flop. I lead for 45 and evaluate if there is any action. You hit a good flop here, no one has shown any interest preflop, your hand is probably good. Lead for your standard ammount (my standard amount here is 40-45) and play poker.

If this is typical of your early round play, it looks like you are just passing time hoping to hit a monster until you get to the push or fold portion of the program.

Back to the hand: what are you hoping to catch on the turn, and how do you play it if you catch it? Not leading here makes the rest of the hand pretty sketchy if you catch what you are looking for. Basically, I think it adds a lot of variance and lowers expectation. There is not a card that can come off that gives you the nuts or even a hand you should be happy getting your stack in with, so are you going into check call reasonable bet mode if you catch good?

I understand your reluctance to play a big pot OOP with a marginal hand, but leading here does not mean you will be playing a big pot. If you get a call, you probably have to fire again on the turn, say T100, if a blank comes, but most of the time the hand resolves itself on the flop or the turn.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]


jeeeez.. yall gotta learn to open up yer minds. im not always just calling to improve my hand. have yall never played a NL cash game or a mtt before? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how you play this hand in a cash game or (early in) an MTT? Man, I hate this line tons more in either of those situations. (I've played lots more cash games and MTT's than S&amp;G's. When I get the S&amp;G count up I may hate the line equally there /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

[durron597]

I decided to shut up after my first replies to this thread and try to learn something.

I am confident that if HeelofTar folds this flop then Raptor isn't checkfolding the turn. Right? (right?).

What's interesting to me, though, is that Raptor says that AK or AQ is *not* what he's afraid of. Does that mean you're playing AK the same way? Or I suppose you raise AK preflop into a limped pot out of the blinds...

Against multiple opponents out of position in a game where you're likely to be in a higher EV situation soon I don't mind the play. I think everyone is right - Raptor likely has the best hand BUT he loses a lot of chips when he doesn't and doesn't win many when he does so why continue?

At first I didn't agree with raptor but after reading this whole thread I think his logic makes the most sense. Don't push your small edges when you think you'll have a bigger edge later.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]

damnit yer still missin the point. THINK!!!! im not making a flop call for value, its for info. if he comes again hard on the turn, i can get away with minimal risk. i SEE things.



[/ QUOTE ]

You get info much cheaper by leading for T45 here. (This is because you end up losing so many hands you would have taken down on the flop, and win so much from the donks who will call a flop and turn bet with a worse ace, second pair, or draw and check behind on the river or bluff a missed draw. If you are so concerned about risk v. reward that you pass up EV later in the hand, I am pretty sure just leading and shutting down is going to average out to more +EV. You cannot expect to win this hand if you don't bet very often. Maybe you can win it the one time in 5 you need to to make your flop call correct.)

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]

also, im not trying to justify my argument with results. i still think its the best line to take even if he flipped over A5. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

and i still think you are wrong even with main villain having two pair (which he played poorly).

[Maulik]

Ignoring the dialogue about raptor being caustic and brash there are good arguments for playing this hand differently. Additionally, this is a message board ignore anyone's ego or sarcasm... More discussion about the risk to reward ratio of this hand would be very valuable.

Still trying to figure out how to play this hand /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[bluewilde]

Aight, not to bump an ailing thread, but I'm still trying to sort out what are the most imporant elements of this hand (cards, position, players, game stage etc). So I figured I'd ask if raptor's move is the same if he had fewer chips. Say you had just taken a brutal beat and were down to 400-500 chips, is your play still so meek (or, if this number doesn't change anything, is there any point before your stack forces you to push preflop that your postflop play changes). I feel like raptor's argument places more emphasis on the fact that this is a small pot and he doesn't need the chips than the fact that he feels he's beaten. But what if you did need the chips? *Edit:* I still feel that if folding is based solely on the intuition your hand is no good, then it's wrong (you won't be right often enough), but peripheral stragety considerations may make it very smart.

How can the rest of us incorporate this into our games. I'm afraid that in my 800-chip games that passing on small edges will leave me crippled on the bubble. I'm voluntarily involved in an average of 2 or 3 hands before we get to push/fold mode, so my mentality is "I need these chips, I'm not going to have many chances to accumulate." Is this hurting me? When my BB hand sort of hits, I fold 2nd pair, TPNK, 2nd best draws etc as easily as I should. But TPGK? That would be more difficult. I suppose I'm saying, I can't tell the difference between when I need to fight for a pot and when I can let it go, which, I suppose, is the heart of postflop play. I go absent-mindedly (and dramatically) from "only premium hands/draws with extra possibilities" to "push/fold" with not much poker in the middle. Anybody want to share some wisdom?

[nykenny]

hi,

i respect your opinion. and i am also new to sngs. would you please exepain the risk and reward ratio here?

you said,

[ QUOTE ]
the point is, the risk reward ratio to gain those chips in there isnt worth it with this marginal holding. period.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks,

-Kenny

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

damnit yer still missin the point. THINK!!!! im not making a flop call for value, its for info. if he comes again hard on the turn, i can get away with minimal risk. i SEE things.



[/ QUOTE ]

You get info much cheaper by leading for T45 here. (This is because you end up losing so many hands you would have taken down on the flop, and win so much from the donks who will call a flop and turn bet with a worse ace, second pair, or draw and check behind on the river or bluff a missed draw. If you are so concerned about risk v. reward that you pass up EV later in the hand, I am pretty sure just leading and shutting down is going to average out to more +EV. You cannot expect to win this hand if you don't bet very often. Maybe you can win it the one time in 5 you need to to make your flop call correct.)

[/ QUOTE ]

now that i look at it deeper, i think leading is by far the worst play here. i would much rather check raise or check call and see a turn. leading is simply not good. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


jeeeez.. yall gotta learn to open up yer minds. im not always just calling to improve my hand. have yall never played a NL cash game or a mtt before? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how you play this hand in a cash game or (early in) an MTT? Man, I hate this line tons more in either of those situations. (I've played lots more cash games and MTT's than S&amp;G's. When I get the S&amp;G count up I may hate the line equally there /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]

heres the thing you seem to be missing. i dont play every hand the same way. i dont play every hand the way it 'supposed' to be played. my game is quite a bit different than teh standard. my mtt track record is excellent, my cash game track record is excellent, and ask anyone that has played live with me (there are probably 10 respected 2+2ers) if they find it easy to know where im at in a hand. everything is situation dependent. in this situation, i chose my line to limit risk. it would be foolish as ever to do that in a cash game or mtt. do you see why? holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

also, im not trying to justify my argument with results. i still think its the best line to take even if he flipped over A5. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

and i still think you are wrong even with main villain having two pair (which he played poorly).

[/ QUOTE ]

yes i grasped that from yer other 3 posts telling me i was wrong. you dont back it up with enough information as to WHY though. keep goin though, this how we all get better. holla

[citanul]

hi kenny,

welcome to the forum.

i don't know where you want the explanation started. i'm not sure if i agree with raptor's line here, but the basic concept is the following:

the general concensus of most players on this forum is that the path to winning at sngs is to be alive late in the game, since you can't win unless you get there. a model called independent chip model, along with sort of common sense, says that other people busting helps your overall equity in the tournament, even if they don't give the chips to you.

so being alive later in the game is very important. the next step is to make it most likely that you have enough chips to play when you get there. sort of similar to this reasoning and again with ICM, you can find that there's many times when sort of this happens:

current ev - ev if you lose x chips &gt; ev if you gain x chips - current ev

this is the biggest difference between cash and tournament games, the difference between dollar EV ($EV) and chip ev (cEV). In sng structured tournaments, this difference is often apparent, and the first step usually from moving to donk to thoughtful player is understanding it. It is what drives most/many bubble decisions.

In raptor's hand, he's taking a far from bubble situation and believes he's utilizing the same concept.

All that said, there's a large and growing number of people who play these tournaments who throw more and more disregard towards this concept in these many handed early game situations, believing, possibly correctly, that while they'll be losing some ROI usually by making these "gambles" they will help their hourly rates if they restart a new game if they bust early. Meanwhile, in those times they gamble and win early, they now have a real stack to work with.

Sorry if that was either long winded or not helpful in the least.

citanul

[citanul]

and a good morning to you mr grumpypuss.

citanul

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
You cannot expect to win this hand if you don't bet very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just flat out wrong. I never bet that flop in raptor's situation.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

also, im not trying to justify my argument with results. i still think its the best line to take even if he flipped over A5. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

and i still think you are wrong even with main villain having two pair (which he played poorly).

[/ QUOTE ]

yes i grasped that from yer other 3 posts telling me i was wrong. you dont back it up with enough information as to WHY though. keep goin though, this how we all get better. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I was replying as I read, so I got a little redundant. Here's why I don't like a check raise here:

1. It may get checked through, which sucks on this board. There is a real chance of that since no one has showed any interest, and there could be a couple of non top pairs or gutshots etc. out there.
2. If you check raise a normal bet (T15 is just weak sause, if you can expect someone to bet that, then sure, c/r away) you are looking at putting t125ish into the pot. If villain comes over the top you have to let go and cost yourself t80 more than if you bet and let go to a raise. If you c/r and get called, now the pot is a lot bigger, and you are OOP with a marginal hand. Very tricky to play that going forward. Sure you may pick up the pot right there (and get a few extra chips in the process), but your raise is not going to really threaten a betters stack and he will have good odds and position to call.
3. (This is a style dependant one) I lead with a lot of hands here, so I am not really giving any real information away other than the flop didn't completely miss me. (I'm not leading with three opponents if I have air, so it does say I have at least a decent draw).

Here's why I don't like a check call here:
1. You don't really get a lot of information. (Assuming that the better will shut down with a weak ace or second pair or a draw isn't something I would do without a read. Position rules here, and without defining your hand some it is going to be hard to define villains.)
2. You invite overcalls. This is a bad board to let hangers on hang on. If you check call a 3/4 pot size bet, the next to act is getting 3.3:1 on his call directly.
3. (repeat from above) I hate giving a free card here.

Here's why I don't like a check fold:
1. I am almost positive it is -EV in terms of TC and the cost of a bet here is such a small percentage of your stack I believe it is -EV in terms of cashing equity. Of the three lines mentioned here, I dislike this one the least.

To summerize (yeah, I know I can ramble) with 3 opponents and a cordinated board that is likely to hit limpers to some degree, I want to resolve the hand quickly and cheaply. I think you have good equity here, so that resolution should not be check folding. Check raising violates the cheaply part and check calling does not really resolve anything.

edit - my grammer sucks

[raptor517]

so basically fnord, you want to bet 45 and let everything come along with you while building a pot and not being able to protect your hand? not exactly the way i would want to play this. think of it as a limit hand. if you lead, you encourage calls from drawing hands. if u check raise, you knock out the str draw that ended up winning. thats as simple as i can make the argument. leading is probably the worst line to take. u get everything in there.

actually, by checking and calling, you receive quite a bit of information. i found out that someone behind me was along for a draw, and i found that out very cheaply. by checking again on the turn, the original bettors continuation bet told me he had at LEAST a relatively strong holding, meaning at least an ace. now, my ace is quite good, and likely better than any ace he would have, however, in the 55s, a lot of people will slow down after getting ANY action wit ha weak ace, as they know their hand becomes extremely weaker the more multiway the pot is.

as for leading, you bet 45, obv the str draw calls, then what happens if lp min raises? you cant actually fold if your logic was to lead into the field. he could be min raising with any number of hands. a weaker ace to see where hes at, a str draw to get a free turn card, etc. what is your plan on the turn if called in one spot? and two? you cant play poker on such a basic level. you have to look down the road as to what will happen on later streets.

this thread is fun. holla

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
i found out that someone behind me was along for a draw, and i found that out very cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he had folded, do you still check/fold the turn? Assume all else the same.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i found out that someone behind me was along for a draw, and i found that out very cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he had folded, do you still check/fold the turn? Assume all else the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

it depends.. one of those things really.. i cant say for sure unless i was at the table and it happened. holla

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]

I was replying as I read, so I got a little redundant. Here's why I don't like a check raise here:

1. It may get checked through, which sucks on this board. There is a real chance of that since no one has showed any interest, and there could be a couple of non top pairs or gutshots etc. out there.
2. If you check raise a normal bet (T15 is just weak sause, if you can expect someone to bet that, then sure, c/r away) you are looking at putting t125ish into the pot. If villain comes over the top you have to let go and cost yourself t80 more than if you bet and let go to a raise. If you c/r and get called, now the pot is a lot bigger, and you are OOP with a marginal hand. Very tricky to play that going forward. Sure you may pick up the pot right there (and get a few extra chips in the process), but your raise is not going to really threaten a betters stack and he will have good odds and position to call.
3. (This is a style dependant one) I lead with a lot of hands here, so I am not really giving any real information away other than the flop didn't completely miss me. (I'm not leading with three opponents if I have air, so it does say I have at least a decent draw).


[/ QUOTE ]
1. If it gets checked through you just got a pretty good idea of where you are for free. You probably have the others crushed, and this isn't a heavy draw board so a free card isn't that bad.
2. I wouldn't checkraise t125, more like t75 which will get action from hands weaker than yours and keep the pot small.
3. Anyone with working brain cells (which sadly sometimes doens't seem like everyone) knows that if you're leading into a 3 other people from the SB that you have at least an ace.

[ QUOTE ]
this thread is fun. holla

[/ QUOTE ]
couldn't agree more, this is a great discussion you've got going raptor.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
so basically fnord, you want to bet 45 and let everything come along with you while building a pot and not being able to protect your hand? not exactly the way i would want to play this. think of it as a limit hand. if you lead, you encourage calls from drawing hands. if u check raise, you knock out the str draw that ended up winning. thats as simple as i can make the argument. leading is probably the worst line to take. u get everything in there.

actually, by checking and calling, you receive quite a bit of information. i found out that someone behind me was along for a draw, and i found that out very cheaply. by checking again on the turn, the original bettors continuation bet told me he had at LEAST a relatively strong holding, meaning at least an ace. now, my ace is quite good, and likely better than any ace he would have, however, in the 55s, a lot of people will slow down after getting ANY action wit ha weak ace, as they know their hand becomes extremely weaker the more multiway the pot is.

as for leading, you bet 45, obv the str draw calls, then what happens if lp min raises? you cant actually fold if your logic was to lead into the field. he could be min raising with any number of hands. a weaker ace to see where hes at, a str draw to get a free turn card, etc. what is your plan on the turn if called in one spot? and two? you cant play poker on such a basic level. you have to look down the road as to what will happen on later streets.

this thread is fun. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

If it goes call raise I have no problem folding.

Often, that lead takes down the pot when no one has an ace or OESD. If I just get one call, I will bet 1/2 to 2/3 the pot on the turn to give draws the incorrect price to come along and check call blank rivers for a reasonable amount. Betting gets out a lot of crappy little hands that can pass you on the turn but wont call a bet on the flop. You have the best hand often here, but you are not going to win a lot with it, so I will try to pick up the small pot and move on.

If I get called in two spots I proceed with caustion.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
1. If it gets checked through you just got a pretty good idea of where you are for free. You probably have the others crushed, and this isn't a heavy draw board so a free card isn't that bad.
2. I wouldn't checkraise t125, more like t75 which will get action from hands weaker than yours and keep the pot small.
3. Anyone with working brain cells (which sadly sometimes doens't seem like everyone) knows that if you're leading into a 3 other people from the SB that you have at least an ace.

[ QUOTE ]
this thread is fun. holla

[/ QUOTE ]
couldn't agree more, this is a great discussion you've got going raptor.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. This is exactly the type of board that hits limpers with draws and middle/bottom pair. Every time you lead the turn after it is checked through and take down the pot uncontested you would have taken it down on the flop. Some of the times you would have taken it down on the flop you will end up second best on the turn and may be raised off your hand or smooth called.

2. I don't think you are going to get a whole lot of action from weaker hands, and that does not keep the pot that small. Are you planning on leading the turn? If so for how much? Position is so crucial in controlling pot size and you don't have it here.

3. Actually, what I am personally saying when I lead that flop is I have at least an ace or an OESD. I will lead with draws some for deception. (Also, as an aside, I often fold OESD and flush draws on the flop if I don't think I will get paid off if I hit and I dont have the direct odds to call.) But even if I am saying "I have at least an Ace", so what? I am not looking to deceive anyone and win a big pot here, I just want to take down the small pot and move on. If someone plays back, they know I have AT LEAST an ace, probably with a good kicker, so they either have a good to great hand or are pretty damn ballsy and will earn the pot from me. If someone semi bluffs me off a pot or raises their Ace rag and gets me to fold, that's fine.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Every time you lead the turn after it is checked through and take down the pot uncontested you would have taken it down on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is quite wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
Are you planning on leading the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

it depends..

[ QUOTE ]
If someone semi bluffs me off a pot or raises their Ace rag and gets me to fold, that's fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

its also fine to lose the 15 chips and then fold. holla

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Every time you lead the turn after it is checked through and take down the pot uncontested you would have taken it down on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is quite wrong.



[/ QUOTE ]

The exceptions are pretty rare.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Every time you lead the turn after it is checked through and take down the pot uncontested you would have taken it down on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is quite wrong.



[/ QUOTE ]

The exceptions are pretty rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

might as well say you should bet every flop then. holla

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

might as well say you should bet every flop then. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, you don't? /images/graemlins/wink.gif



<font color="white">j/k</font>

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Every time you lead the turn after it is checked through and take down the pot uncontested you would have taken it down on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is quite wrong.



[/ QUOTE ]

The exceptions are pretty rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

might as well say you should bet every flop then. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

um, no, for several reasons. The first of which has to do with conditional probability, the second of which has to do with having showdown value. There are also meta game reasons, and betting every flop is an easily exploitable strategy.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Every time you lead the turn after it is checked through and take down the pot uncontested you would have taken it down on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is quite wrong.



[/ QUOTE ]

The exceptions are pretty rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

might as well say you should bet every flop then. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

um, no, for several reasons. The first of which has to do with conditional probability, the second of which has to do with having showdown value. There are also meta game reasons, and betting every flop is an easily exploitable strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was kidding. holla

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Every time you lead the turn after it is checked through and take down the pot uncontested you would have taken it down on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is quite wrong.



[/ QUOTE ]

The exceptions are pretty rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

might as well say you should bet every flop then. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

um, no, for several reasons. The first of which has to do with conditional probability, the second of which has to do with having showdown value. There are also meta game reasons, and betting every flop is an easily exploitable strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was kidding. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I started to put "I really think you are just baiting me now". I probably should only post when I am at work and concentrate only on this and not while I am multitasking either playing or taking care of the kids. Sometimes I am such a tool.