An open letter to Mat Sklansky

[wacki]

I am writing this in an open letter form and not a PM for these reasons.

1) I want Ed Miller, David Sklansky, and Ray Zee to see this.
2) I feel one thing the forum is severely lacking is communication not only between moderators and users, but between moderators themselves. I believe this causes a lot of problems and I hope this letter will help alleviate them.
3) 2+2 is an excellent place for discussion; hopefully this thread will help spur high quality discussion on this topic.

Although 2+2 started as a small friendly group of posters and poker players it has recently grown to become a large and successful business. Since it is a business it should be treated like a business. Your priorities should be in this order:

1) Avoid litigation
2) Attract as many advertisers as possible by having as large of a user base as possible.
3) Make 2+2 friendly enough to advertisers so none of them get scared away by it’s controversial content.
4) Allow enough controversial content to keep 2+2 interesting and people active in the forums.
5) Keep people interested enough in poker so they keep on buying books. Depending on revenues of books vs income via ads, and where the ads are coming from, this may be more important than #4.
6) Keep people interested in playing poker. Making them good at poker isn’t all that relevant. The money for your ads comes from rake. Most of the rake comes from losing players.
7) Keeping up good communication between the mods to make sure that the posters know the rules and the mods can discuss situations.

These are the cold hard facts.

Problem 1) avoid litigation

Earlier today a poster with only 1 year of law school under her belt represented herself as a legal expert. This is highly dangerous for a multitude of reasons. First of all it was very poor advice. Second she was giving law advice, representing herself as an expert, without a license. You can not afford to listen to bad advice. Going too lenient will eventually land you with a lawsuit. Becoming too strict will push away posters which will make you lose advertisement revenue. Both situations are a losing scenario.

I strongly urge David Sklansky, Ed Miller and Ray Zee to hire a lawyer to give Mat advice. You should talk to a lawyer that has experience in this specific field and not somebody fresh out of law school let alone a first year law student. I suggest that you do not look up a random lawyer, but find a good one, and then have him refer you to one that specializes in the field. For instance, talking to a friendly prosecutor is often a good way to find a good defense attorney.

Once you have found a lawyer discuss what you can and can not post. You should know your limits beyond a shadow of a doubt. 2+2 is too big, and too profitable, not to spend money on an hours worth of legal advice.

Problem 2) Attract as many advertisers as possible by having as large of a user base as possible.
Problem 4) Allow enough controversial content to keep 2+2 interesting and people active in the forums.

These should be self explanatory. Keep 2+2 interesting and people will remain active.

Problem 3) Make 2+2 friendly enough to advertisers so none of them get scared away by it’s controversial content.

This should be simple. Let the advertisers know you filter out specific words. You are already doing this. You also need to let them know that the moderators are not official employees of 2+2. They do not receive a paycheck. Their opinions are not representative of 2+2, nor should they be. They are merely volunteers that are helping 2+2 avoid litigation. If an advertiser feels differently, you can change your stance on this. Until then, this might be a good default course of action.

Problem 5&6) These are poker problems which are handled by the forums and indirectly OOT and politics.

Problem 7) A private forum is needed for the moderators to discuss situations and not to question your reasoning out in public. More communication is needed in the moderation and administration community. A public forum is also needed to allow people to make complaints or discuss why threads were deleted.

If anyone else has anything else to add, I suggest they do it here in the most constructive manner possible. If anyone makes a troll like reply, I suggest other posters ignore them.

Mat, I wish you, Ray Zee, and the rest of the 2+2 empire the best of luck.

Sincerely,

Wacki



Sorry if there are grammar mistakes. I spent way too much time on this as is.

[Alobar]

good post wacki.

I have a question. Isn't mason the owner of 2+2? Shouldnt he be the only one with a say, who cares what david, ray and ed think?

[kipin]

Very good post.

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
good post wacki.

I have a question. Isn't mason the owner of 2+2? Shouldnt he be the only one with a say, who cares what david, ray and ed think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would guess that mason does.

[Shajen]

My concern is it's going to reach a point where it may be easier to get rid of the other other topics forum than it would be to attempt to moderate it.

If it ends up going this route, it's a sad sad day in OOTville.

[[censored]]

I cannot stress this enough. Everyone needs to let this go as far as OOT topic.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
good post wacki.

I have a question. Isn't mason the owner of 2+2? Shouldnt he be the only one with a say, who cares what david, ray and ed think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would guess that mason does.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. I didn't quite mean it like that tho. I just mean like if mason is the owner of 2+2 (which I could be very wrong about), then shouldnt this be an open letter to Mason? Not saying he wont take the advice of the other people involved, but isnt the final say his?

Im just asking, because I think mat gets alot of the blame for things around here, when mat is just an employee and nothing more (at least thats what I understood, but I could be wrong, which is why I asked).

[wacki]

I don't know. I do know that Ed Miller is afraid of a lawsuit.

My general point is that if 2+2 is a business, the only opinions that matter are the posters and the advertisers. That's it.

Extreme example:

Pretend Mason is the sole owner, if his opinions conflict with the opinions of the majority of the posters and he acts on them, he is losing business.

[Indiana]

Great post. You forgot to add a line about restoring my russian bride post. It was a classic and quite entertaining.

Indy

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot stress this enough. Everyone needs to let this go as far as OOT topic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%. I'm still baffled by how upset people appear to be getting based on a few posts that have been deleted, and accounts locked. It's an internet forum! I feel bad for those who have nothing better to do than complain about OOT (not necessarily directed at wacki as much as some of the other posters here).

My 2 cents.

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
good post wacki.

I have a question. Isn't mason the owner of 2+2? Shouldnt he be the only one with a say, who cares what david, ray and ed think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would guess that mason does.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. I didn't quite mean it like that tho. I just mean like if mason is the owner of 2+2 (which I could be very wrong about), then shouldnt this be an open letter to Mason? Not saying he wont take the advice of the other people involved, but isnt the final say his?

Im just asking, because I think mat gets alot of the blame for things around here, when mat is just an employee and nothing more (at least thats what I understood, but I could be wrong, which is why I asked).

[/ QUOTE ]

once again you are right.

[touchfaith]

Gawd this is getting lame.

Can't you people get it through your heads that Mat is going to run things the way Mat deems fit?

Don't they give you college brats enough to do with your time that you can avoid worrying about other peoples problems? Evedently not.

Maybe you are still sore that your admin was taken away for this forum...I dunno...but these self-proclaimed 'I know more then you, this is how it should be done' threads are getting old.




This has been an alert of the public whining alert system.

We know return you to your regularly scheduled whining thread.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
My general point is that if 2+2 is a business, the only opinions that matter are the posters and the advertisers. That's it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, yet people seem to not realize that some of the stuff posted here may directly affect the goals of getting advertisers and promoting the 2+2 publishing line. If there's a conflict between the two, the paying advertisers are going to win out over the people posting for free every time.

This is not a horny teenage forum, it's a poker forum. Even OOT should be held to the same standard of class and pride that Mason clearly values when it comes to 2+2 publishing.

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]
My concern is it's going to reach a point where it may be easier to get rid of the other other topics forum than it would be to attempt to moderate it.

If it ends up going this route, it's a sad sad day in OOTville.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wholly agree. Unfortunately, getting rid of OOT altogether seems to be where the situation is leading.

One thought that I've had all along is: How many advertisers actually notice OOT and base their decision to advertise because of OOT's content? The content or the forum isn't reflective of 2+2 at all, because it is such a small part of it. It's tucked down at the bottom of the list of forums and most people visiting 2+2 would be drawn to the strategy forums and not something called "Other other topics". It took me quite awhile before I finally stumbled upon it, and I used to spend hours each week visiting the poker forums.

I agree that this forum needs to be moderated, but I think that a lot of the talk lately has been people making mountains out of molehills (on boths sides of the debate).

[wacki]

The reason I made this post was not to complain like many others are doing. The reason I made this post was to help Mat. I respect Mat but I saw him take bad advice from a very bad source. That was a huge mistake.

I also get the impression that they are genuinely not sure how to treat OOT. If OOT is a business, then Mat should talk to a lawyer and then have mods execute those rules. If advertisers want more rules, he should hand those rules to the mods on top of the rules given by the lawyer.

I am not complaining. Do not lump me in with those people. I am giving Mat business advice.

[Neal_Schon]

The only thing that would make this post better is some Journey.

http://us.ent1.yimg.com/images.launch.yahoo.com/000/010/914/10914935.jpg

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]


I am not complaining. Do not lump me in with those people.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's not what I was saying.

[Indiana]

Period. OOT is by far the busiest forum on this site. There are only like 5 posts a day on my beloved sports betting forum and like 9 on probability. Sponsers pay for this site and this forum aint goin nowhere baby.

Indy

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing that would make this post better is some Journey.

http://us.ent1.yimg.com/images.launch.yahoo.com/000/010/914/10914935.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Let's have some Journey. Now who the hell are those old guys in that pic?

[Indiana]

Journey helps. 80s music always helps:)

Indy

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Do not lump me in with those people.

[/ QUOTE ]

People are comfortable with lumping.
It requires less thinking than reading each post for what it is.

As for your post, wacki...

I agree with a lot of it, but I'm not sure how much of your advice 2+2 is willing to take. If OOT is that much of a problem for them, they'll probably just get rid of it entirely.

If this is for real -- if there really are serious legal or financial issues relative to this forum, or at least about which the owner(s) of this forum are concerned -- then don't you think the first move should be to remove any control over how this forum operates from college students and other anonymous/non-anonymous moderators that are not affiliated with the company? If this was my business, I wouldn't be giving anyone who didn't work for me control over any issue that could hit me in the pocketbook in any meaningful fashion, particularly if I've never met them (and I don't know whether that is the case here).

[gulebjorn]

I don't understand the need to moderate OOT at all. The more crap fits in here, the less litigation there will be in the poker forums. Just let everyone act out here, who cares? It keeps the "serious" forums clean.

[Indiana]

Good point. And there ain't gonna be no gd litigation issues around some internet posting forum anyway. Really, who and what are they gonna sue for?

Indy

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
then don't you think the first move should be to remove any control over how this forum operates from college students and other anonymous/non-anonymous moderators that are not affiliated with the company?

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as I know, Mat already did that. He is the only listed mod of OOT.

[gulebjorn]

I really can't see how 2+2 could get into legal problems because of OOT. It's not like anyone's posting kiddie porn in here. I'm pretty sure they can't be held responsible for anything posted in OOT.

[touchfaith]

This post reeks of ignorance. It's almost sad.


[ QUOTE ]
The reason I made this post was not to complain like many others are doing. The reason I made this post was to help Mat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did he post an 'open request for Wacki's help?'. No? Ok, that makes it a whine/complaint.


[ QUOTE ]
I respect Mat...

[/ QUOTE ]

...just not enough to trust him to share this with his co-workers (or whatever they are), so I will make it public rather then a PM...

(boy, that's some respect you have there).


[ QUOTE ]
...but I saw him take bad advice from a very bad source. That was a huge mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who are you again to judge other peoples advice and/or the source? Who are you to deem it a 'huge mistake'? You 'advice' has suddenly become an insult. Nice job.


[ QUOTE ]
I also get the impression that they are genuinely not sure how to treat OOT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me Mat knows exactly how to treat OOT. He deletes/locks threads he feels are offensive to the masses.

If I remember correctly, it was the Mods that didn't know how to treat OOT, spending their time being more worried about gimmick accounts and their personal opinions/feelings, instead of simply following the guidlines that Mat setout.


[ QUOTE ]
If OOT is a business, then Mat should talk to a lawyer and then have mods execute those rules. If advertisers want more rules, he should hand those rules to the mods on top of the rules given by the lawyer.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are still confused as to weather or not 2+2 is a business? Or are you insulting him to the fact that you do not feel he knows?


[ QUOTE ]
I am not complaining. Do not lump me in with those people.

[/ QUOTE ]

That ship seems to have sailed.


[ QUOTE ]
I am giving Mat business advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

...even though he didn't ask me for it.






GG

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
I really can't see how 2+2 could get into legal problems because of OOT. It's not like anyone's posting kiddie porn in here. I'm pretty sure they can't be held responsible for anything posted in OOT.

[/ QUOTE ]

One way in which I believe they could get into legal trouble (I am not a lawyer) is if people post copyrighted material here. I think it isn't acceptable, for example, to cut and paste an NYTimes article.

[wacki]

Mods delete posts early. They are a quick acting safety net that handle the bulk of the load. That is it. The current system puts way too much stress on Mat.

[gulebjorn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really can't see how 2+2 could get into legal problems because of OOT. It's not like anyone's posting kiddie porn in here. I'm pretty sure they can't be held responsible for anything posted in OOT.

[/ QUOTE ]

One way in which I believe they could get into legal trouble (I am not a lawyer) is if people post copyrighted material here. I think it isn't acceptable, for example, to cut and paste an NYTimes article.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure the Times would sue their asses off for such a horrible violation of copyright laws.

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
I really can't see how 2+2 could get into legal problems because of OOT. It's not like anyone's posting kiddie porn in here. I'm pretty sure they can't be held responsible for anything posted in OOT.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think are wrong as the hosts they can be held accountable, a football site I post on has had a number of problems with litigation threats due to people posting photos from matches as well as links to a site a user was using to host the goals ripped from a tv show. They have also reported some users to their employers and colleges for some extreme postings.

Personally I think OOT was doing fine things have gone pear shaped since moderation came in all we seem to talk about is moderation, the majority of the current advertisers form what I see are current or ex posters on the forum I dont see any major multi nationals with adverts here maybe they are wanting to expand the advertising streams.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]


I'm sure the Times would sue their asses off for such a horrible violation of copyright laws.

[/ QUOTE ]

While it's unlikely, I think it's certainly possible and thus it's a relatively substantial risk, particularly when you can easily fix it by just posting outside links.

[ QUOTE ]
You can not afford to listen to bad advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

You best chickity check yourself before you wreck yourself.

[trying2learn]

there was a post here a second ago that i was going to respond to...and then it was gone. i didn't feel that it was offensive in any way, but in the effort to not get deleted myself i won't rehash it. curious however.

[Indiana]

ThinMan,

Im not afraid to speak my mind so here goes: You've been an [censored] this week.

The end. Indy

[BottlesOf]

Some good stuff in there, but if you want to attract advertising revenue, I wouldn't worry about not "scaring them," I'd try and update my site beyond 1999 standards, and support third-party ad serving. I'd also develop a media kit. The site needs to have IAB standard ad units that aren't piled on top of each other. It needs to look better. If twoplustwo.com is going to generate significant ad revenue it needs a significant overhaul on the front and backends. I've seen no signs that this is anyone's intent at 2+2.

[imported_anacardo]

[ QUOTE ]
ThinMan,

Im not afraid to speak my mind so here goes: You've been an [censored] this week.

The end. Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

This week? It's his MO. Anonymous Internet Hater. Every other post is "consider killing yourself."

[mslif]

[ QUOTE ]
Problem 1) avoid litigation

Earlier today a poster with only 1 year of law school under her belt represented herself as a legal expert. This is highly dangerous for a multitude of reasons. First of all it was very poor advice. Second she was giving law advice, representing herself as an expert, without a license. You can not afford to listen to bad advice. Going too lenient will eventually land you with a lawsuit. Becoming too strict will push away posters which will make you lose advertisement revenue. Both situations are a losing scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a very good post Wacki.
The above-mentioned is what shocked me the most. This forum is entirely too big for them not to have legal counsel. The owner of this site needs to know what can and cannot be posted. Trusting other posters or moderators is not merely enough (nothing against you or the other mods but you do not have any kind of legal background), and trusting a one-year law student is madeness.
I hope your post makes a difference.

[sthief09]

uh poker you [censored] idiot?

[Mat Sklansky]

We have legal counsel.

I deleted the bride thread after locking it because I'm sick of people coming on here and being ungrateful little pricks. I would have unlocked it after It was clear that the picture wasn't someone's private snapshot, but people expecting that I should go to great efforts to research a single thread is silly. If something seems questionabble to me, it will be deleted or locked. At least locked, I can be privately notified that I am in error.

Ultimately we are still in the bookselling business and when I tell potential customers (who don't really know who we are), say from Canada, to come check out this site, I don't necessarily want them to read post titles like best "blowjobs" and open up threads talking about cocks being chewed up by girls with braces.

If that makes sense, great. Help me out by not going out of your way to offend. You people have thousands of posts in this forum. It must mean something to you. If you don't like it; if you think I'm an idiot, go get your own forum.

In fact, for 10,000 per month, you can rent one of ours.

Mat

[Talk2BigSteve]

[ QUOTE ]
We have legal counsel.

I deleted the bride thread after locking it because I'm sick of people coming on here and being ungrateful little pricks. I would have unlocked it after It was clear that the picture wasn't someone's private snapshot, but people expecting that I should go to great efforts to research a single thread is silly. If something seems questionabble to me, it will be deleted or locked. At least locked, I can be privately notified that I am in error.

Ultimately we are still in the bookselling business and when I tell potential customers (who don't really know who we are), say from Canada, to come check out this site, I don't necessarily want them to read post titles like best "blowjobs" and open up threads talking about cocks being chewed up by girls with braces.

If that makes sense, great. Help me out by not going out of your way to offend. You people have thousands of posts in this forum. It must mean something to you. If you don't like it; if you think I'm an idiot, go get your own forum.

In fact, for 10,000 per month, you can rent one of ours.

Mat

[/ QUOTE ]

Way to Go Mat!!!!

Big Steve /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
We have legal counsel.

I deleted the bride thread after locking it because I'm sick of people coming on here and being ungrateful little pricks. I would have unlocked it after It was clear that the picture wasn't someone's private snapshot, but people expecting that I should go to great efforts to research a single thread is silly. If something seems questionabble to me, it will be deleted or locked. At least locked, I can be privately notified that I am in error.

Ultimately we are still in the bookselling business and when I tell potential customers (who don't really know who we are), say from Canada, to come check out this site, I don't necessarily want them to read post titles like best "blowjobs" and open up threads talking about cocks being chewed up by girls with braces.

If that makes sense, great. Help me out by not going out of your way to offend. You people have thousands of posts in this forum. It must mean something to you. If you don't like it; if you think I'm an idiot, go get your own forum.

In fact, for 10,000 per month, you can rent one of ours.

Mat

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like my opinions where spot-on. Surprise surprise.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't like it; if you think I'm an idiot, go get your own forum.

In fact, for 10,000 per month, you can rent one of ours.

[/ QUOTE ]

pwned!

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like my opinions where spot-on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. But I won't waste my time...

Perhaps I should just copy someone else's work and use it to respond?
That sure would be clever.

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Looks like my opinions where spot-on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still being AngryColin because I gave that guy that jinxed Greg a hard time huh?

Finish your choores already?

[razor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you don't like it; if you think I'm an idiot, go get your own forum.

In fact, for 10,000 per month, you can rent one of ours.

[/ QUOTE ]

pwned!

[/ QUOTE ]

not really since this can be done for much cheaper...

[TylerD]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, for 10,000 per month, you can rent one of ours.

[/ QUOTE ]

BonusWhores are paying you 10K a month, jesus.

[Indiana]

Mat,

My bad with the russian bride post. I shouldn't have posted that. I'm a hypocrit posting stuff like that after criticising the existence of this forum. You delete what you need to and no need to explain. I am not sure what you mean by "ungrateful little pricks" though. To whom does this refer?

Indy

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
You delete what you need to and no need to explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think his job would be easier if there was better communication. I feel bad for mat. BTW, completely ignoring ad revenue and going completely book revenue changes everything.

[Shajen]

[ QUOTE ]
Mat,

I am not sure what you mean by "ungrateful little pricks" though. To whom does this refer?



[/ QUOTE ]


all of us. /images/graemlins/wink.gif also, if you feel like it applies to you, then it probably does.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
because I gave that guy that jinxed Greg a hard time huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's more about everything you post. I don't think anyone on these forums has ever seen you post something that wasn't completely wrong, lame, or belligerent.

But don't take my word for it...
Listen to virtually all the other posters here who think the exact same thing about you.

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In fact, for 10,000 per month, you can rent one of ours.

[/ QUOTE ]

BonusWhores are paying you 10K a month, jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's the first thing I thought of.

[touchfaith]

Again...I'll live.

Evidently, this is a very tasking portion of your life though and I can only be honored that you have so little in life to care about that you choose to care about me.

Thanks!

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
Ultimately we are still in the bookselling business and when I tell potential customers (who don't really know who we are), say from Canada, to come check out this site, I don't necessarily want them to read post titles like best "blowjobs" and open up threads talking about cocks being chewed up by girls with braces.

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFLMAOCOPTER360x12 /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Lawrence

[Indiana]

Hey ThinMan,

I'll give you two options:

1. I just kick your ass outright

2. We can take this chit to the virtual felt heads-up on pokerstars.com at say 9pm ET tonight?

Let me know man,

Indy

[AngryCola]

Care is much too strong of a word.

I just stumbled upon one of your silly posts and made my response, but I'm not going to get dragged into a pitiful (for the both of us) flame war with you.

Enjoy being... well... you.

[BottlesOf]

[ QUOTE ]
Sponsers pay for this site and this forum aint goin nowhere baby.


[/ QUOTE ]

They do?

This is such a pointless post.

In short you are over valuing OOT influence, that's to be expected since you are a moderator of this forum though. Yet OOT really has little influence over these factors:

[ QUOTE ]
2) Attract as many advertisers as possible by having as large of a user base as possible.
3) Make 2+2 friendly enough to advertisers so none of them get scared away by it’s controversial content.
4) Allow enough controversial content to keep 2+2 interesting and people active in the forums.
5) Keep people interested enough in poker so they keep on buying books. Depending on revenues of books vs income via ads, and where the ads are coming from, this may be more important than #4.
6) Keep people interested in playing poker. Making them good at poker isn’t all that relevant. The money for your ads comes from rake. Most of the rake comes from losing players.
7) Keeping up good communication between the mods to make sure that the posters know the rules and the mods can discuss situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could individually list reasons against each one but in short controversial OOT threads, in advertisers eyes, don't matter as much as any post in midhigh. This place is a kids playground and such it's only worry should be avoiding law suit. Advertisers, such as i, don't care about this place.

This post should be 'controlling OOT' that's it. OOT has little influence over 2+2 and little influence in advertisers eyes.

[theBruiser500]

mat make me a moderator i will clean this forum up real fast

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
mat make me a moderator i will clean this forum up real fast

[/ QUOTE ]

For only $10,000 you could run the Chomsky forum. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sick of people coming on here and being ungrateful little pricks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I think a lot less of you now because of it. Especially since you ban people for similar comments, even after they apologize.

I have a feeling that the communication problems between mods might be caused by your attitude that the posters of 2+2 are low-life scum and not worth any more of your time than is absolutely necessary.

IMO, there's few things more depressing than someone who despises their job.

As for the legal and other problems that Wacki talked about, they can all pretty much be solved by making this forum private, with no ads, and charging a monthly fee. If people had to pay $29.95 to get a new account, they would be a little more careful about keeping their posts within the rules and not getting banned, don't you think?

[Slacker13]

Couldn't much of this be resolved by placing a disclaimer near the OOT link? As a business man myself it's seems ridiculous to want more clients/traffic and yet be banning people. Sure, the people you ban cross the line but they are also posters who may or may not purchase your product and who are part of the traffic your trying to show advertisers.

Just take the OOT link, place into a seperate box on the left with a disclaimer saying something like this forum may be offensive...yada yada.

It's hard to believe that the people who would advertise in a poker forum could be offended so easily. When did poker turn into such a squeeky clean business?

[Mat Sklansky]

Actually, this is what I'm trying to get accomplished, but as someone said earlier, I am an employee and that decision is not mine to make.

Also, I want everyone to know that they are free to call me a prick whenever they like.

Mat

[Matt Flynn]

anybody calls Mat a prick they gotta deal with me.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
anybody calls Mat a prick they gotta deal with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

and me

[razor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anybody calls Mat a prick they gotta deal with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

and me

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anybody calls Mat a prick they gotta deal with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

and me

[/ QUOTE ]

Having met both of you in person makes this comment about 100 times funnier. Bruiser does scare me a little, he may know some martial arts.

I agree with Mat though. Far too many people have decided this should be their own personal forum to say and do whatever they want, when in fact, we're all merely guests here.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]

In fact, for 10,000 per month, you can rent one of ours.

[/ QUOTE ] 10,000 posts a month, [censored] homie, I got that.


[ QUOTE ]
Ultimately we are still in the bookselling business and when I tell potential customers (who don't really know who we are), say from Canada, to come check out this site, I don't necessarily want them to read post titles like best "blowjobs" and open up threads talking about cocks being chewed up by girls with braces.

[/ QUOTE ] it use to not be like this, sadly, it has become that.

[OtisTheMarsupial]

I'm here! I'm here!

Consider this sh*t stirred!

[Ed Miller]

wacki,

I'm responding because you semi-addressed this to me. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

2+2 has had the same legal counsel for many years. 2+2's legal counsel is one of the top lawyers in Las Vegas. It is not, nor has it ever been, OtisTheMarsupial.

I value OOT. I think it's great that it's so popular, and the general tone of it is fine. Having said that, we are cleaning it up a little for several reasons. I'd love for there to be a bright line that says, "This is ok, this is not." Maybe some day it will be that easy. But for now, there's no bright line, and some gray area posts are going to get deleted.

Honestly, I don't know what more I can say. I admit that the system can use some improvement. Please bear with us while we try to improve it. It's definitely not our intention to alienate people. But there are going to be some "rules of engagement," and we are going to try to enforce them as fairly as possible. If people feel that we are unfair and leave because of it, there's not much we can do.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anybody calls Mat a prick they gotta deal with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

and me

[/ QUOTE ]

Having met both of you in person makes this comment about 100 times funnier. Bruiser does scare me a little, he may know some martial arts.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's a two-pronged attack. Bruiser grabs your knees and breathes on you in a non-gay sort of way while i steal your bankroll and run into the sports book. you have 2 races to get away from him. otherwise you better pray for the 3 horse.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Mat though. Far too many people have decided this should be their own personal forum to say and do whatever they want, when in fact, we're all merely guests here.

[/ QUOTE ]

it seems to me that anybody advertising on a poker site would want that site to be "real." whiskey, beer, anything on the edge. Disney does not wants a piece of this, so why cater to them? blowjob posts sell product, even if they do get old.

people harsh way too much on Mat (not you nolan). he holds it together just fine and deserves a little more courtesy.

[[censored]]

happpy birthday majorkong, thanks for "you guys fold too much" and the book.

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
happpy birthday majorkong, thanks for "you guys fold too much" and the book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with a lot of it, but I'm not sure how much of your advice 2+2 is willing to take. If OOT is that much of a problem for them, they'll probably just get rid of it entirely.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one wants to get rid of OOT.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Ed, some people say we look like brothers. We must be, I mean damn, we both are so freakin smart and handsome.

Nice post, and happy b-day.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
2+2 has had the same legal counsel for many years. 2+2's legal counsel is one of the top lawyers in Las Vegas.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad to hear that. I was obviously given the wrong impression by some posts in a currently deleted thread.

[ QUOTE ]
I value OOT. I think it's great that it's so popular, and the general tone of it is fine. Having said that, we are cleaning it up a little for several reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no problem with cleaning up OOT. However, I do think a lack of communication is causing most of mats headaches. A situation that could be easily solved. Explaining the thought process to not only the mods but the posters would alleviate a lot of problems and encourage posters to self regulate.

Glad to hear OOT isn't going anywhere.

I've said all I need to say. Best of luck Ed.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anybody calls Mat a prick they gotta deal with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

and me

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img170.exs.cx/img170/1945/zing4mc.jpg

[Matty]

Happy b-day

[MrTrik]

I'm fairly new here and won't even attempt to understand the details of this situation. But I must ask this:

Why don't you put a huge disclaimer up. Maybe some pop up that comes up when entering OOT that says something like: "OOT is a forum that is not moderated by 2+2 and we accept no responsiblity for anything said here".

And then inform potential customers that you operate a very civilized site but that you do not monitor OOT because it is the free-for-all zone on our boards.

This is the strategy of most ISPs. Since they moderate nothing, they act like they are simply passing the traffic through. It is is a "don't ask, don't tell" outlook at things.

[jackdaniels]

Good advice (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=3100957&Fo rum=,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main =3098116&Search=true&where=&Name=5140&daterange=&n ewerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev= #Post3100957) man. I think Mat should respond (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=3101004&Fo rum=,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main =3098116&Search=true&where=&Name=4&daterange=&newe rval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Po st3101004) to this and tell us what he thinks about it.

Edited to add: Happy Birthday Ed!

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Good advice (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=3100957&Fo rum=,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main =3098116&Search=true&where=&Name=5140&daterange=&n ewerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev= #Post3100957) man. I think Mat should to respond (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=3101004&Fo rum=,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main =3098116&Search=true&where=&Name=4&daterange=&newe rval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Po st3101004) this and tell us what he thinks about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice!

[Bulldog]

Ed & Mat's posts have convinced me that all is well in OOT. I can handle a few locks/deletes in the gray area in exchange for keeping OOT what it is. Now can't we all just get along and play nice?

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]

Ultimately we are still in the bookselling business and when I tell potential customers (who don't really know who we are), say from Canada, to come check out this site, I don't necessarily want them to read post titles like best "blowjobs" and open up threads talking about cocks being chewed up by girls with braces.


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, ah classic. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Mat, if words are the problem, then the answer is very simple:

All threads involving any sexual must be written in French.

You see, the French are cool and treat each other like adults (the Dutch too) unlike Western countries which attempt to 'baby' their citizens and repress them, besides, nobody is ever offended by anything written in french, its a cool language, no crude like English. (cock chewed by braces, terrible) /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

That's the answer Mat, parlae francais if you want to talk about sexualitie.

Trust me. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

PS - If this happens, buy shares in Babelfish, you'll be rich. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Great post. You forgot to add a line about restoring my russian bride post. It was a classic and quite entertaining.

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

That was deleted? I didn't see anything wrong or un-OOT-like about it.

[RunDownHouse]

Mat's explanation is buried in one of these threads around here, maybe one that was also locked.

EDIT: Since I realized how unhelpful that was, I believe he originally locked it because he thought it was someone's private pictures being posted without permission, and goading from a certain someone may or may not have influenced him by mentioning lawsuits. Even after he realized the pictures were posted ona private site, so many people had pissed him off by demanding he unlock it/do more research on where pics come from/things they had no right to demand, he kept it locked.