5-10 Hand...Turn Stupidity?

[Jeffage]

Playing 5-10 online. I get AQo on the button. One weak MP limper, folded to me I raise. Heads up. Flop is 842 with two hearts. I have the Ah. Check, bet, call. Turn is the 6h. He checks, I bet. Would you bet or take free card here heads up? Why or why not? Anyway, I get checkraised. I call. River is an offsuit 10. He bets. Call or fold? Players in this game are capable of checkraising a bluff on the turn (putting me on overs which is exactly what I had). Anyway, comments appreciated. I think it's an interesting situation that comes up a lot. Generally should u check with outs on a rag board with position against a player that you isolated?

Jeff

[Mike Gallo]

One weak MP limper, folded to me I raise.

He checks, I bet. Would you bet or take free card here heads up? Why or why not? Anyway, I get checkraised. I call. River is an offsuit 10. He bets. Call or fold? This doesnt sounds like a weak player to me. Given your description of this player, I would fold. You can only beat a bluff.

I will look for you Saturday

Michael

[Jeffage]

But would you bet the turn...would expanding ur outs tend to make u bet or check the turn heads up in this scenario? BTW, just cause someone checkraised doesnt mean they are not weak...you playing 5-10 or 10-20 Sat?

Jeff

[elysium]

you have a fairly strong holding with a draw to the nuts heads up. you must bet when he checks, particularly on a draw infested board. he also has given no indication that he will call your bet; but that is a two edged sword.(how do you get the paragraph thingie to work?)anyway, yea...his lack of strength is being pretty expertly applied right now and i don't think this is a weak player here. he plays a formidable game. this player is tampering with your odds as well, and there is nothing that you can pull out of your hat to upset his apple cart exept one thing; reraise. this player is not weak; ask, how is he so sure you will bet here? your hand strength is reasonably concealed; to wit, it's non-existant(yet). you don't have a weak opponent, you have a tricky opponent. a raise by you now will keep him more predictable in the future and has some chance at getting a fold. if reraised( slightly possible to marginally possible), call. you have corrcet odds to call. if he doesn't reraise you, on the river bet if he checks and fold if he bets, unless of course you improve, then call or raise. hopefully it won't get that far and your turn reraise will fold him.we're heads-up here and you must fire back like this in these situations.

[glen]

If you plan on calling the river if you miss, put the three-bet in on the turn. Since you hold the ace of hearts, most opponents will be scared to four-bet you. If you do get four-bet you have an easu fold on the river if you miss. If you think he's trying to get fancy check-raising a stiff king, but you know he would never fold a pair on the river, you can check the river if you miss and you might take it down. If you think the ten hit hit, or you don't think he's being fancy, call the turn and fold on the river, but don't just call because you missed and now the pot's too big, and you want to put him on a bluff, etc.

[Mike Gallo]

But would you bet the turn...would expanding ur outs tend to make u bet or check the turn heads up in this scenario?

I would bet the turn. Depending on the opponet I might reraise the check raise. I also could just call.

I might call the river if I thought he could bluff for the pot. I didnt realize you also had a draw to the nut flush.

This weekend I don't what limit I will play. Depends on the lineups. Last week all the games looked good. If I had the bankroll, I would sit in the 20-40 game, it looked soft.

Michael

[elysium]

the idea is to reraise so that you won't be scratching your head about what to do on the river. if you don't reraise, now look. your facing a bet again. haven't we been here before? yea, your a high could be good against this player.incidently, if you had shown more strength earlier(you showed as much as he allowed) you could call on the turn and fold on the river. the problem here is that when you bet, he may have thought that you thought that he thought that you would check it down, and therefore bet, on that basis alone. it's the " on that basis alone " part that presents the problem. look, your asking yourself if you should call on the river with a high. the reason is that of course, he may be weaker than you read him to be, because he was less than very confident that you would bet. in other words, he may have been going for a free card with a back-up plan of action based on his belief that you only bet because you thought that he thought that you would check it down. by reraising on the turn, your telling him that you are not betting simply because you think that he thinks your going to check it along, no sir. your reraise tells him that you have the goods; a made hand. no no of course you don't. but by reraising, he thinks you do. and say what you will, you are taking advantage of the fact that your lack of show of strength had nothing to do with you, it had to do with him. he wouldn't allow you to show how strong your holding was until now, when he check-raised you on the turn. so you have turned the tables on him. and oh boy, if he comes out betting on the river, oh boy will you ever fold and how. but you will do so for the same price and with far more confidence.

[Jeffage]

I don't think you would fold the nut flush draw...I'll prob play mostly 10-20 this weekend with some 5-10 for warmup first. We'll see...

Jeff

[Jeffage]

My opponent had 9h5h for the turned flush. I called his river bet very stupidly. I appreciate the comments, and really like glen's analyisis. I think 3-betting is the right thing to do in this spot in the future.

Jeff

[davidross]

This has to go in the category of player dependant. There are so many players that wait until the turn to fold that betting the turn can’t be that bad. If your opponent is one of those guys who calls to the river with any part of the flop then you check the turn. If he’s truly tricky I would consider 3-betting the turn, then checking behind on the river if the flush didn’t come.

In your hand I fold the river against most players.

I told you guys that I don't play on the internet and would be hard pressed to determine if a player is weak or not. Anyway, I agree with Mike that folding maybe the best play. You said that check-raising does not necessarily mean that the player is not weak. A player who you think is weak checks/calls you, the PF raiser HU, then check-raises you when a scare card come and then lead out on the river will make me more inclined to fold. Yeah, I chicken out too. BTW, I'be there Sat too.

[cferejohn]

I don't know what it says about the player, but it doesn't sound like a weak hand. It sounds like a slow-played pocket 4's or a lucky pocket 6's.

Please, please, don't use my game for warm up, ok? /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[Louie Landale]

There are a LOT of hands this kind of player can call the flop with and still fold on the turn. Unfortunately, none of them feature a pair. Its not so much that YOU have outs, is that HE doesn't have many outs against YOU, if your hand is good. So letting him draw (say to his QJ) doesn't hurt much. Also, when you check the turn figure to call the river against THIS player.

- Louie