Is check raising overrated????

[Schmed]

Like bluffing while you have to do it it seems to be often overrated and if most people took it out of their arsenal it wouldn't mean that big of a swing.

I have been thinking about this for a while. I see people check raise the turn or even worse the flop and get people out of the pot that would have called their bet down to the river. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do it. There are very few things better than looking at the look on a guys face when you have him trapped. It just seems you should be very selective in doing it.

The other night I check raised twice with a lot of success. I was also check raised once and I couldn't help but think that even though the guy who check raised me won the pot he lost a couple of bets. I posted the hand below, "Middle Position". He check raised the flop, then he checked again on the turn, I bet and he raised me. (DOH!!!!). Couple of things on my behalf. I didn't give his initial check raise all that much credence because I thought if he had it he should have bet and it was only a 2 dollar bet that he check raised. (2 jacks on the board he had A Js I had 10 Jc). I also have to admit that on the flop I lost track of the fact that he check raised. I thought he was on the button. Maybe not bet the flop utg but definitely bet the turn coming out. Then the guy checked me on the river I checked him down. If he just bet's out from the turn he gets the same number of bets out of me but by check raising he risks losing one of those bets and then by trying to do it again on the river he doesn't get another bet. I've done similar things. Fact is if I had realized that he check raised I would have been a lot more cautious....and he wouldn't have gotten anything else out of me...maybe the river bet....if he even decided to bet then

I am coming to the conclusion that there are times and places for check raising and you really have to calculate if you are defeating your purpose by check raising people out that don't have a chance at beating you. Another question I have is why would anyone ever want to check raise the flop? If you have a great hand from an early position and you have someone betting it for you why not wait until the turn where the bet size increases to make that play? My thinking is the only time I check raise the flop is if I want to show more strength than I have. I want people to think that I have the straight but really I only have 2 pair. Something like that so I can take down the pot right there. Am I mistaken in this thinking??? Am I missing something fundementally???

[Nottom]

First of all, checkraising multiple times during a hand to build a pot is pretty shady as it will often end up getting checked through unless you are beat.

I think you are missing some of the reasons that you want to checkraise. Basically the times I like to checkraise are

1)I feel I have the best hand but if I bet out my opponent will only call, yet if I check he will bet and then call my raise.

2)There is a draw on the board and I want to have them make a mathematical mistake by calling two bets instead of one.

3) I have a good draw and many people are in the pot and a bet comes from my left. Hopefully I don't get re-raised and everyone will happily toss in another bet.

4)I have a vulnerable best or 2nd best hand and want to eliminate other players because the pot is already pretty big and I want to maximize my chance of winning it.

Granted these are all pretty standard reasons and I'm sure there are a few other good reasons, such as bluffing against players who respect your check-raises. On the other hand I see players who checkraise with no real reason way too often. The biggest mistake I see often is people check-raising a draw on the flop when the raise comes from their right, thus knocking out opponents and killing the pot odds for when they hit their hand.

[cferejohn]

I also find if you check-raise enought in a game where players are paying attention, it can often get you a free card or two in EP when the LP players are afraid to bet their decent-but-not-great hands becuase they fear your check-raise.

Actually, one of the places I find the check-raise to be most effective is when this happens:

I open-raise pre-flop, single caller (not one of the blinds). I flop a big hand. I bet, they call. Now I check. A lot of the time, players will assume I was bluffing on the flop (and sometimes I am, admittedly), and they will bet into me here. I find this comes up most commonly in mid-to-late tournament situations where people are typically trying to steal more than normal.

I see your point about it being overrated though, there are some players who try it all the time and end up giving way too many free cards.

[Mike Gallo]

A check raise works best when you have a very aggressive player to your left. You get to check and you know he will bet. You made a smart play. Replace the aggressive player with a calling station, you missed a bet.

I like to checkraise from the blinds. Especially after I flop a big hand bet and I get raised. I will then check raise the turn depending on my opponents. I do not recommend check raising passive opponents

Everything done in moderation works well.

[Rich P.]

It is true that some people checkraise without any real knowledge of what to use it for, but checkrasing in not overrated. Indeed, it is an absolute necesity in low limit play.

Trying to knock players out in a low limit game is like hitting a concrete wall with a sludge hammer. It's difficult. So I use the checkraise as a tool to knock players out.

If you have a vulnerable hand, you can't knock out too many players. It's true that someone drawing for an underpair has little chance of beating you, but the combined number of outs against you is what you are trying to reduce.

Checkraising often demonstrates strenght and puts you in control of the hand. There are so many good reasons to checkraise I don't have the time to list them all.

The bottom line is that checkraising is only overrated when it fails to work, e.g. knocking players out or building a pot or whatever your goal. Therefore use it, and use it as often as it is likely to produce the results you want.

[elysium]

well, you must understand that check-raising when you have the goods, more than occasionally allows a free card to slide off when you don't. and this brings up a good point. there is no such thing as a free card. oh sure, you'll the 'ol story about the guy that raised on the button with his draw and got a free one on the turn.but, understand something, this means that everyone checked to him. well, if more than 2 people were in the hand, he had a value bet, if he had a draw.furthermore, if everyone checked to him, who knows, a bet may have picked up the pot. you could say accepting the free card wasted an opportunity on one hand and actually cost him money on the other.( awww my paragraph thingie isn't working) anyway, we could banish the notion of the free card play forever were it not for the check-raise. o.k. all you purists out there will ridicule me for classifying the check-raise as a free card play. but doggonnit, that's what a check-raise often accomplishes. now i know you'll say " wait, you just said that you should bet rather than accept a free card. doesn't that mean if you check-raise regularly, the free card coming off isn't a free card since you'll bet it?" now come on, that's what your thinking about saying, admit it. well, my answer is that your correct. in the case of a solid draw, betting rather than check-raising offers more positive opportunities. but what if you're sitting on a suited three straight with an over card and your on the button? we're on the flop here. what are you going to do? will you raise? you don't have the odds to. quickly, what do you do? well, one things for sure, if anyone bets, your folding. but then," hey wait!" you think, " i regularly check-raise!!" you regularly check-raise, and now your frightened opponents check to you, still smarting from the last one. no, you won't always get the free card;and incidently it truly is a free card because the play that got it for you not only didn't cost you money, it made you money. if you had check-raised and weren't called, the following hand you bet out strongly with your monster and were raised at which point in time you reraised. we forget the times we make such plays, preferring to remember only the times our expectations weren't realized to their fullest. but if you have been following the instructions here at two two, you were there.you did that.

[Rich P.]

Just want to point out that a ckeckraise usually means your in early position, not the best position to try for a "free card." Checkraising probably doesn't help you get a "free card" very often, whatever a "free card" is.

[elysium]

i know, but that gives you some idea about how powerful regularly check-raising can be. yes, your opponents actually allow a free card when your on the button. that they never teach you in those books! don't overuse this play. it's a guarded secret.

[pudley4]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
but what if you're sitting on a suited three straight with an over card and your on the button? we're on the flop here. what are you going to do? will you raise? you don't have the odds to. quickly, what do you do? well, one things for sure, if anyone bets, your folding. but then," hey wait!" you think, " i regularly check-raise!!" you regularly check-raise, and now your frightened opponents check to you, still smarting from the last one

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you babbling about? Are you saying that because you checkraised a previous hand, you'll get a free card now that you're on the button??? That's nonsense.

[davidross]

There are many times check-raising is your best option. Many players however overdo it and cost themselves money in the process. I find a lot of situations where it’s player dependant. You know the guy who has to bet the button if everyone else’s checks, he’s a perfect target for a check-raise.

You commented on check-raising the flop. I like to check-raise the flop from early position with middle pair, or a low top pair in a big field. I also like to do it with flopped sets, 4 flushes and open ended draws. IN the first case you want a button bet and you raise to clear everyone else out. The second case you want a lot of callers trapped for the 2nd bet.

[Toro]

I recently posted on this subject in another section of the forum. I usually play at FW and in my experience check raising will usually cost you more bets than it gains. But during a recent trip to LV I found that the check raise was a very effective tool in picking up extra bets. Maybe my experience was an anomaly but it sure seemed like the players in LV were more aggressive and willing to bet into you on your strong hands and pay you off when raised.

[Schmed]

that's kind of where I was going with this. I have made the mistake of check raising running people out that probably would have called all the way down if I hadn't shown so much strength.

I understand the reasons why you would check raise the flop in most of those situations. I don't understand why you would rather get the extra bet on the flop rather than the turn. Then again I guess, answering myself, a lot of people will call a 4 dollar bet twice that may not call the 8 dollar bet once let alone twice given more information as to how crummy their hand really is. The risk is now everyone should be aware that you have a strong hand and they certainly wont fall for that ploy on the turn.

Thanks for the responses.

[elysium]

yes, that is what i'm saying. if your opponents are used to you unexpectantly betting or raising, you will often be the force to contend with at the table. oftentimes, you will be checked to. and yes, check-raising makes you a more dangerous opponent. now, whether someone stops in their tracks to complete the thought process of exactly what is it about your playing style that causes them to check to you or just checks to you because your a dangerous check-raiser, regaurdless of your position, is getting too technical. decisions at the table are made quickly like that, and if your telling me that your opponents are just as likely to bet into whether you check-raise or not, your sadly mistaken. i am asserting that a regular check-raiser is less likely to be bet into, no matter where he is positioned on the table. i am also saying that a regular check-raiser will get more free cards on the button than his non check-raising button counter-part. why? i don't know. this is not a precise science here. if you had an electric cattle prodder, and everytime someone bet into you after you checked, you zapped them with it, i can safely assume that if your sitting there with it on the button, you would be more likely checked to than your button playing counter part who didn't have one, even if everyone could see that it was unplugged. why? i don't know. all i'm saying is check-raise regularly. you'll get more free cards on the button when you need them. if i'm lying, i'm dying.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

A "free card" isn't free. It's seen at a discount. Check-raising for a freec ard from EP works primarily when the bettor is in late position with other players between you. If the bettor is to your immediate left with callers between him and you, the check-raise will usually not buy you a free card.

[oddjob]

i think you are fairly dead on. i see way too many people (especially younger guys... sorry to generalize) checkraise and run people out. it's obvious that they only do this with really strong hands.

i've found that it's best to play straightforward, and hope someone raises me.

one time i will check-raise in the games i play, is when there are a lot of players in, the pot is huge, i'm of course early position with a monster, and i'll checkraise to trap these people. i love watching people cold call 3 or 4 bets at a pot they have no chance of winning.

[cferejohn]

Out of curiosity david, if you check-raise with a draw, then don't hit it, do you always bet out on the turn? It seems like it is almost required (unless you have pulled off the dreaded double-checkraise with a strong hand recently). However, in your 'ideal' situation (bet on your left, trapping several players), this means you are betting a draw that you may not be getting odds on in EP and you hate a raise. I guess what I'm saying is that I can see this being a good move *if* your turn bet has a decent chance of buying the pot, but I would back off of it if you get caught at it a couple times.

[davidross]

Betting on the turn depends on whether I'm considering my check-raise a value raise or a semi-bluff. There is nothing wrong with check-raising the flop against 3 opponents with a flush draw, then checking the turn. On the flop you were gaining EV becaue you figure to win more than 1 in 3 and were getting 3 additional bets for each one of yours, a good overlay. On the turn, if you missed, betting can be an option if you think there is some chance they will fold, but if not you can check. They may check behind you, and if not you play it like any other draw.