Party $400 NL - Is This Obvious? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

View Full Version : Party $400 NL - Is This Obvious?

Billy Liar

08-09-2005, 10:44 AM

Been getting a good kicking recently, and finding these kinds of decisions more difficult. What do you do here, and what's the plan for the rest of the hand?

Edit: Forgot to say - played less than 10 hands w/ villain, so nothing known about him.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($372.40)
BB ($397.40)
Hero ($391.80)
Button ($2542.58)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
Hero calls $4, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($12) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $8, SB folds, BB calls $8.

Turn: ($28) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $20, BB raises to $75,

fuzzbox

08-09-2005, 10:53 AM

I dont know if I bet that turn after a check-call like that. I have to fold the check-raise unless I can consitently get the rest of his stack when I fill up.

Check call is often flush. If you check turn, he might overplay it when you fill up, or he could bluff the river with no flush.

LetYouDown

08-09-2005, 10:57 AM

I'd bet more on the flop and check behind on the turn, based on the flop action as it played out. Make him pay for the worst possible turn card imaginable. Every draw got there...but this is semi-player dependent. Could this be two pair? As it stands, I'd call against players where implied odds are good and fold against players who won't pay you off if you fill.

ahnuld

08-09-2005, 11:07 AM

Id call in a second and see what he does on turn if another club comes or the board pairs. I dont think hes checking if the board pairs becuase this doent seem like a set. If im villan, and you call, Im putting you on something like A k /images/graemlins/club.gif or a pair and flush draw, not a set.So if the board pairs, I see him check calling 75 or leading into you and calling a small raise.

Marlow

08-09-2005, 11:20 AM

You just barely have implied odds to make the call. With a big bet like that, I'd say that there's a decent chance that he's stealing, tho. But he could just suck and be overbetting his made hand as well.

But in the final analysis, you have invested very little so far. Even though it might be +EV to call (but we don't know the player, so it's impossible to know for sure), the variance of the play is enormous. Too many x-factors. I'm prolly folding here.

Marlow

Billy Liar

08-09-2005, 12:03 PM

Thanks for the replies so far.

I called the turn raise. I thought there was a decent chance he'd just flushed (or even straightened), and didn't want to continue a recent trend of being too aggro with very good hands & getting all-in against better ones. I also thought that if he had any of the 2 pairs (he's BB), he'd probably dump if I raised (maybe not AQ or AT). I must admit I didn't consider folding the set - I never have with cards to come unless I was certain of a better set being out. If he has the flush, I don't think he can fold a paired river for around pot size ($150), and I think that gives me my odds.

Anyhoo, river came:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($372.40)
BB ($397.40)
Hero ($391.80)
Button ($2542.58)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
Hero calls $4, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($12) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $8, SB folds, BB calls $8.

Turn: ($28) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $20, BB raises to $75, Hero calls $55.

River: ($178) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets $100,

How now?

turnipmonster

08-09-2005, 12:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But he could just suck and be overbetting his made hand as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

overbetting? he's laying better than 2:1, in what universe is this an overbet?

[ QUOTE ]

But in the final analysis, you have invested very little so far.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really hate saying this and it's been said a million times before, but all that matters is how much money is in the pot and how much you and your opponent have left. how much you have "invested" in the pot is irrelevant. if you were being sarcastic with this comment I am stupid, forgive me.

turnipmonster

08-09-2005, 12:21 PM

well it's either move allin or call. of course he can make this bet with lots of hands that you beat, if he puts you on an ace he can expect you to at least call w/trips and so he can bet a flush or a straight for value here.

the opponent dependent question is will he fold less than a boat here if you raise. that really depends on how he plays and what he thinks of you more than anything else.

--turnipmonster

LetYouDown

08-09-2005, 12:28 PM

Looks like a blocking bet with a flush, at first glance. Depends on the opponent. If he has the flush and is good, he'll lay down if you push. I'd push if you're still going with your flush read and you're pretty sure he'll pay you off. Any other raise seems inadequate.

luckOverSkill

08-09-2005, 12:32 PM

Hmmmm... that turn card put you between a dog and a
lamp post!

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Having said that...

Villain has check called your pot sized bet and has
made a meaty check raise on the turn. So he must have
something. Best case scenario would be to have him on
top pair top kicker with one big club, or even two pair
with one big club. KJ is also possible. I would lean
toward a crying call here on the turn but I think
you may be behind.

But assuming we don't know what villain will do on
the turn, I would prefer to check the turn... you seem
to be committed to a showdown but you're not sure if
you're ahead. If you're beat you're going to end up
paying off more to the villain by betting and then
calling his raise.

As far as the river goes... call. I wouldn't raise.
I wouldn't do anything fancy here on the turn or river
given that you haven't seen too much of villain's play.

Billy Liar

08-09-2005, 04:36 PM

Well, as LetYouDown suggested, I took the river bet of just over half-pot to be a blocking bet with the flush (or possibly top trips w/ A or K /images/graemlins/club.gif). So I min-raised to $200, he put me in, and I called my last $100 (the pot is big, and people sometimes do silly things). He shows A /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for the 2nd nuts, and I decide to finish for the day.

As I mentioned, I'm having a bad run at the moment, so I thought I'd post some hands like this and use them to sound out some general concepts of how I play.

First, that horrible min-raise. I've never min-raised before at NL, and I think I did it here out of confusion or 'trying something new' more than anything. Does anyone here use the min-raise and if so, what do you think it adds to your game?

A few people suggested checking the turn here, and I'm pretty sure that's something I'd never consider. I have to think I'm ahead most of the time in a 3-way pot, and I don't want to give the 4th club/broadway card for free.

But the shorthanded pot also means I really don't want to fold this hand (unless the 4th club comes). So I think the check-thru is a good idea, intending to call any non-club river. It may not be the best or most +EV way to play it, but against an unknown it may reduce variance and prevent me making a big mistake (like folding to the turn raise or raising the river /images/graemlins/confused.gif ). Anyone see any big flaws in thinking there?

Big_Jim

08-09-2005, 05:07 PM

Raise PF. Bet more on the flop.

You're not quite getting odds to flll up here, so without a read, this is probably a fold.

edge

08-09-2005, 05:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You're not quite getting odds to flll up here, so without a read, this is probably a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the turn? I'm not folding a set that easily. Yes, he checkraised a straight and flush card, but he could easily have Aces up. Call and consider folding on a non-paired river if he bets hard.

Edit: Spike the case 4 on the river.

warlockjd

08-09-2005, 05:29 PM

Call and fold unimproved river

warlockjd

08-09-2005, 05:30 PM

push river

Big_Jim

08-09-2005, 05:53 PM

We're getting about 2.25:1 on this call right now, and we are about 3.5:1 against improving.

If we're beat now, we only need to get another $70 in the pot for the implied odds to be there, so I guess that the call is okay, even if we will only put more money in on a paired board. It gets a little stickier if we can't fold on a blank river.

Of course, as we learned here, the reverse implied odds when villian fills up over us are pretty horrendous, which may screw with this.

For the record, I really like villian's line in this hand.