"Use fewer chips to make other players make decisions for their whole"

[AA suited]

"Use fewer chips to make other players make decisions for their whole stack."

I've heard of this before, and i probably saw an example of it. But for the life of me i dont remember right now.

Can someone elaborate?

THX!

[SNOWBALL138]

Doyle writes about making stone bluffs (not semi-bluffs) for 7k into someone holding a 20k stack. He says something like "he thinks that I'm committed but I'm not committed, and he thinks that to play on, he's playing for his whole stack"

Its sort of a way of getting better odds on your bluff (betting less) but simultaneously appearing to be offering poor odds for the caller.

[schwza]

unraised pot, you're SB vs BB. 100/200. villain has 700 behind in a 400 pot.

if you bet 250, it's very unlikely villain will call here and fold later in the hand. so to him it's like a push, but you can still fold if you want.

but wont you get flamed by 2+2ers for folding a pot that was offering you 3:1 odds?

[schwza]

if the board is K98 and i have 45, i'm perfectly happy to bet-fold getting 3:1. flame away, 2+2.

[XXXNoahXXX]

A similar concept, but in reverse, is when you are shortstacked at a table. Say there are 5 left and the average is 2K, you have 700, and blinds are 50/100. If you are acting in early position, a bet of 300 is a lot scarier than an all-in. The other players assume that you are not folding to any push or pretty much any flop, so you must have a monster and want people to call and stack you off. I find that I can steal more blinds when shortstacked when I don't just push all-in but rather bet about half my stack. If someone wants to gamble, so be it.

[SNOWBALL138]

Preflop, this is my favorite move...when other people do it. I am so blown away by how often my resteals work. Its mind-boggling.

hehe, touche /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Schwza wrote:
unraised pot, you're SB vs BB. 100/200. villain has 700 behind in a 400 pot.

if you bet 250, it's very unlikely villain will call here and fold later in the hand. so to him it's like a push, but you can still fold if you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

ah... i think i just caught a leak.

when i steal w/garbage as button from the blinds who have between 7-10BB, i go all-in. I'm under the thinking that you should always push if you or the blinds have less than 10BB.

instead, i should just raise 2.5BB if i have >10BB? his all-in re-raise tells me that i'm beaten.

How about if I AND the blinds have 7-10BB? Should i still raise 2.5BB to steal? or just min bet? or all-in?

hm.. in your example, what do you mean "700 behind in a 400 pot?"

also, if blinds are 100/200, how can you bet 250? isnt the minimum 400?

[durron597]

Here is a very simple example.

Your stack on the button: 2600
SB's stack: 2200
BB's stack: 1200
UTG's stack: 2000

Blinds 100/200.

UTG folds. You raise to 600 instead of push. If the SB decides to push, you can still fold, but he's pretty much going to be obligated to back this pot with his stack if he chooses to continue. Sure you have to call a push from the BB, but you lose fewer chips the times the SB wakes up with a hand.

This is more relevant post flop because the odds numbers can be more skewed (Hero being correct to fold getting 3:1 or better) but I picked a preflop example to keep it simple.

[Matt R.]

[ QUOTE ]
instead, i should just raise 2.5BB if i have >10BB? his all-in re-raise tells me that i'm beaten.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a mistake to always do this without taking other things into consideration. Under most conditions, you should just go ahead and push to maximize your fold equity as you've been doing. I think you can do something like what you're talking about on some occasions though. It's primarily when you have a medium stack and the blinds after you are <10x BB. If you raise to 2.5x-3x BB, and one of the blinds push, calculate your pot odds. Then look at your stack size if you call and lose. Even if the pot odds are really good, I will fold a lot of decent hands here if a call cripples me. This is a very specific instance though because I'll definitely call with a big stack, if the blinds are so short my pot odds are great, or if I'm low on chips myself I'll open push.

So basically, don't open raise to 2.5x BB with the intention of folding to a push from someone with 7x the BB. Once they get closer to 10x though, there are some instances where I think it's okay.

And I think Doyle's quote is just referring to good big stack play where you use a small fraction of your stack to threaten the whole stack of your opponent. You can safely execute a lot of bluffs or semi-bluffs like this since the amount you're betting won't hurt you nearly as much as it will hurt your opponent if they call.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
hm.. in your example, what do you mean "700 behind in a 400 pot?"

also, if blinds are 100/200, how can you bet 250? isnt the minimum 400?

[/ QUOTE ]

i mean there is 400 in the pot and the BB has 700 chips left.

the minimum bet post-flop is the size of the big blind.

[bearly]

hi..when speaking of gigabet i know i could always be wrong but: it seems w/ blocks and lines and blocks above the lines he is pointing out the situation where your block above the line is (almost) only of value if you use it. so, when you use the block above the line to attack, or toy w/ a block the height of the line , or below, you are posing a threat to that owner of the block that he/she could have the whole block put in play, and you are only risking your over-block (assuming you are clever, and gigabet). i have created a model for this (unrelated to cards) called "the melon game"---i am working out any of the possible implications in the rules and play that might make it break down as a model of giga's idea. maybe i will complete it , and be able to post it. hummmmm.........................h