KK OOP vs. preflop reraiser

[Ghazban]

Party 1/2, villain has about $195, I cover. I've only been at the table a couple orbits and have not seen villain before. He hasn't shown down a hand (that I can remember) but he hasn't done anything donkish (minbetting, minraising, calling down PSBs with a flush draw, etc.). I haven't gotten involved much, either, so he shouldn't see me as a maniac.

I have KK in MP, folded to me, I make it $8, villain on the button makes it $24, folded to me and I call.

Flop is Q72r

What's your plan for the hand? Include likely hand ranges for an unknown villain as well.

[fuzzbox]

check/call flop, lead turn, and fold a raise (unless you hit a K).

[pischa]

It does not look like he is trying to steal from you since you seam to have played solid so far. You say you have played a few orbits so hes not trying to scare a new player on the table. The raise is not extraordinary, I would say, so nothing there that say anythig. So he probably has real hand. AA-TT, AK-AQs, AK. He probably put you on a medium pair, strong A or K.

The hands you are scared of, obviosuly are QQ and AA. The resat you have beat good.

You have to bet, I think, maybee between 60-70% of the pot and se what happens. I can only se him reraising with AA, QQ and AQ (which looks good enough, if he put you on a medium pair), if he does, then you have a tricky situtaion and should start counting outs and odds.

If he only calls your bet, then I would check the turn.

[subzero]

Without a read, I'm assuming he's not a tricky player. Possible hands: AA, QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQ. Control the pot and play it like you have AQ. Fold to a raise. Hopefully you'll get to showdown (cheaply) and he'll have AQ.

[chumsferd]

[ QUOTE ]
check/call flop, lead turn, and fold a raise (unless you hit a K).

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
check/call flop, lead turn, and fold a raise (unless you hit a K).

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that I think about it, there probably isnt enough stack left to do this properly. 50 in pot now and 175 behind. If it goes check - 40, call then its 130 in pot and 130 in hand.

Yuck. Q-high flop with that action is horrible henry higgins.

So, a few choices

1. Nuts in hand - check-raise all-in and hope for the best
2. Weak tight - lead 35 fold a raise, check-fold if called
3. Snap off overcards - check call flop, push non-A turn.

Yucky yuckerson.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
check/call flop, lead turn, and fold a raise (unless you hit a K).

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that I think about it, there probably isnt enough stack left to do this properly. 50 in pot now and 175 behind. If it goes check - 40, call then its 130 in pot and 130 in hand.

Yuck. Q-high flop with that action is horrible henry higgins.

So, a few choices

1. Nuts in hand - check-raise all-in and hope for the best
2. Weak tight - lead 35 fold a raise, check-fold if called
3. Snap off overcards - check call flop, push non-A turn.

Yucky yuckerson.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its like you freaking read my mind. My first thought was your first post and my second thought was the post I just quoted. I decided I'd represent QQ and do the flop c/r all-in move to hopefully move him off AA if he had it and prevent what would certainly be an even worse situation when an A hit on the turn (because I'm a pessimist and always see aces on the turn when I check/call kings).

He had it... and he was not willing to be moved off it... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[jkkkk]

Check-raise flop, represent the ladies. If he doesn't slow down, hes either got them himself or hes over playing aces. Either way you have fold equity from oddly played hands, JJ, TT, AK and you'll find out where you are for cheap.

Edit: just realised about stack sizes, I think you have to make a decision on the flop, either hes too predictable and this is a check-fold, or he mixes it up too much, in which case this is probably a check-push.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
check/call flop, lead turn, and fold a raise (unless you hit a K).

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that I think about it, there probably isnt enough stack left to do this properly. 50 in pot now and 175 behind. If it goes check - 40, call then its 130 in pot and 130 in hand.

Yuck. Q-high flop with that action is horrible henry higgins.

So, a few choices

1. Nuts in hand - check-raise all-in and hope for the best
2. Weak tight - lead 35 fold a raise, check-fold if called
3. Snap off overcards - check call flop, push non-A turn.

Yucky yuckerson.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its like you freaking read my mind. My first thought was your first post and my second thought was the post I just quoted. I decided I'd represent QQ and do the flop c/r all-in move to hopefully move him off AA if he had it and prevent what would certainly be an even worse situation when an A hit on the turn (because I'm a pessimist and always see aces on the turn when I check/call kings).

He had it... and he was not willing to be moved off it... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you fold Aces here ? You have either KK or QQ given the action. I call with Aces if you check-raise me all in.

I guess weak-tight was the winner !!

[Ghazban]

Check/pushing the flop was horrible here and the more I think about it, the more I hate it. The only way the raise has positive expectation is if villain has only one queen (AQ/KQ) which infers he's got a wide reraising hand (AQ isn't a reraise from most people I've played in this game, let alone KQ). Anything else will put me on AQ and call if they can beat it, fold if they can't.

I think the "weak-tight" option is the best so far but I don't like it.... I hope somebody can come up with something better.

[fuzzbox]

Make it 70 pf, and dont put another dime in if he pushes, or if you hit that exact flop ?

Check/fold the flop?
Push preflop?
Lots of options.

Q-high flop is the one I hate more than anything when I play KK like this preflop. I dont really beat much (apart from AK) against a tight reraiser.

[djoyce003]

The thing I hate here is that most people won't reraise with anything except AK, KK or AA....KK is highly unlikely given your hand. The first thing i'm giving him credit for here is AA. I would be shocked if he reraised AQ. He either has AK, AA, or QQ in my opinion. You are only ahead of one of those hands right now. I'd probably lead the pot, if it gets flat called, or raised i'm done with the hand. It sucks but I just can't see you being ahead...you haven't seen him do anything crazy yet so i'd assume he has what he's representing. I dont like the checkraise all in because the only hands that call you are way ahead I think..I think you have no folding equity over AA there and you would fold out AK or AQ the only thing you are ahead of, although I think AQ is highly unlikely.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Check/call, lead/fold seems about right with deeper stacks. However, here, I think you should just lead/fold. His hand range is basically AK/AA-QQ probably. You are not ahead of too much. In fact, check/fold might even be right at this point. But I would have definitely 3-bet preflop. No one folds anything preflop in these games.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
Check/call, lead/fold seems about right. But I would have definitely 3-bet preflop. No one folds anything preflop in these games.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think stacks are deep enough. There's $48 on the flop with $170 behind. After a PSB on the flop, there's $144 in the pot with $138 behind. Leading and folding to a raise is not viable.

"No one folds anything in these games"-- my experience has been quite different (this is full ring if my OP didn't specify; at 6-max I'd be more likely to agree).

[TheWorstPlayer]

I edited after re-reading the OP. Sorry.

Why are we so ready to rule out a flopped set just because villain is betting hard? I often bet pottish with a monster hand for the same reason as some people are using against a boat --- to make it look like I want people out of the pot.

I agree with the lead turn (to a non-flush river) - fold to further aggression line. Hero needs to find out where he stands. If called on the turn, I like checking the river and evaluating villain's last bet.

[chumsferd]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the lead turn (to a non-flush river) - fold to further aggression line. Hero needs to find out where he stands. If called on the turn, I like checking the river and evaluating villain's last bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I originally advocated this line too, but I had just skimmed the OP. As fuzzbox pointed out, though, this line isn't great since the pot will be large relative to the stacks on the turn that it will be impossible to make a meaningful bet without pot committing yourself. I think he's right.