Verbally binding?

[Lawrence Ng]

Here's something that came up a little while ago in a live 10/20 NL game. I was not involved in the hand but there was some heated discussion over it.

Two players were in the hand. Player A had $3000 and Player B had $5000. Player A had some black chips, but mostly green chips and Player B had almost all green chips.

On the river, Player A shoves all-in for about $2000. Player B thinks for a little and verbally declares, "yeah, I call"

Player A then turns over a set. Player B mucks his hand.

The dealer is then counting up Player A's stack which actually worked out to $2055. The dealer then informs Player B that he needs to give $2055.

Player B looks at the dealer and says, "I never called him."

It was very clear that Player B verbally declared a call on the river, but he had made no motion to shove any chips prior to the showing of hands.

The pit was called over of course and made a ruling.

What do you think the correct ruling should be here?

Lawrence

[AJo Go All In]

i don't understand. are you asking if saying "i call" is binding? is that your question? if so, then, yes, it is binding.

[Photoc]

I'm going out on a limb here and say that if someone says "i call" then they call, regardless if they pushed any chips in. Normally, you dont push them in unless you lose.

[Benoit]

Just an idiot trying to talk his way out of losing $2055. Saying an action is as good as doing it with the chips.

The floor did the right thing too, right?

[Bremen]

I'm going to take a wild guess here and say the floor actually ruled it wasn't a call. Otherwise why would you post this?

[Jeffage]

Obviously, this should be ruled a call and I hope it was. Welchers and angle shooters like this should be shot.

Though it puts the floor in a tough situation if the guy continues to deny it and refuses to cough up the money. Unlike a bet in blackjack which was in the circle when cards were dealt for the cameras to see, if the guy said call, the only witnesses are at the table. My guess is if he made a huge stink, he has a shot at getting out of it. Like he could say something like, I asked if "That's All?" I mean, obviously BS like that...but what would the floor do in something like that. We're not talking about a $60 bet in a limit game here. My guess is the best the floor could do is have him barred if he doesn't honor his bet.

Would it be dickish to make him push all the money in the middle before flipping up the cards? Curious cause I rarely play NL.

[TM1212]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, this should be ruled a call and I hope it was. Welchers and angle shooters like this should be shot.

Though it puts the floor in a tough situation if the guy continues to deny it and refuses to cough up the money. Unlike a bet in blackjack which was in the circle when cards were dealt for the cameras to see, if the guy said call, the only witnesses are at the table. My guess is if he made a huge stink, he has a shot at getting out of it. Like he could say something like, I asked if "That's All?" I mean, obviously BS like that...but what would the floor do in something like that. We're not talking about a $60 bet in a limit game here. My guess is the best the floor could do is have him barred if he doesn't honor his bet.

Would it be dickish to make him push all the money in the middle before flipping up the cards? Curious cause I rarely play NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

O please god tell me the floor got this right! if they didn't I would never return to the cardroom again and urge others not to as well. To not have a verbal declaration stand in a Nl game, destroys the integrity of the game, and the people involved. Its angle shooting in its ugliest form. The guy should be barred for even trying this [censored]!

[Bremen]

[ QUOTE ]
My guess is the best the floor could do is have him barred if he doesn't honor his bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know where this was, but they could probably arrest him for theft if he dosn't pay. Although I shudder to think what would happen if actions in a poker game were the focus of a court case. I also doubt the casino would want to pursue this as its not their money he stole.

[Falker11]

I sure hope the floor ruled this was a call. If the floor gets somthing this clear-cut wrong, you can be sure I would never come back to this casino again and would probably do someting like calling the gaming commission that oversees this casino. Don't know where that would get me but hopefully it might fix the problem.

Would love to get the results of this soon.

Falker

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Verbal action made in turn is binding. End of story, pay up now mr. angle shooter.

al

[21times20]

so am i right to infer that a verbal action made out of turn is not binding? and what about a physical action (i.e. bet) made out of turn?

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
so am i right to infer that a verbal action made out of turn is not binding? and what about a physical action (i.e. bet) made out of turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

The word for out of turn is MAY.

[AngusThermopyle]

And the floor's ruling was??????????????????

[Al_Capone_Junior]

ANY action made out of turn MAY be binding. What you're looking for is someone acting out of turn, whether verbally or physically, and their out of turn action causing others to act. So say there's a bet from EP, I'm on the button, and I say "raise." Now everyone folds between EP and me. I'm going to be required to make that raise, because everyone else has now acted on my action, even tho it was out of turn. Same thing might happen if I bet out of turn, then everyone checks to me, I cannot now check behind (some angle shooters love this one, I don't let them slide tho).

Sometimes action out of turn might not be binding. Say someone is concealing their cards, and I call the big blind out of turn, because I didn't see their hand. Now they speak up and want their turn, and put in a big raise. Well I am not going to be required to call that raise, or even the original bet, even tho I acted out of turn. You see that here, I acted out of turn, but not in a malicious or angle-shot manner, so I shouldn't be penalized because someone else was hiding their cards.

There are a billion areas of grey here, so you have to use judgement when you're the dealer to make the right calls. I generally go easy on new and low limit players, and enforce things more strictly in larger or no limit games. I am always thinking about the integrity of the game, not the EXACT interpretation of every nitty little rule. If you are too much of a stickler tho, people start having less fun, and you start making fewer tips. /images/graemlins/frown.gif Also, I explain things to new players, thus after a while of being at my table, they won't keep making the same mistakes over and over.

al