Taking on the other big stack

[durron597]

Stars $16 turbo. This player seemed quite good for a $16. He had raised my blind every orbit for several orbits, and a lot of other pots too. Love it? Hate it? Wait for a better spot?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t3865)
UTG (t1085)
MP (t1560)
Button (t5075)
SB (t1915)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t1225</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t3865</font>,

[lastchance]

Oh, crap, I thought it was a short stack push. I fold this pretty quickly, but it might be a good push.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
Stars $16 turbo. This player seemed quite good for a $16. He had raised my blind every orbit for several orbits, and a lot of other pots too. Love it? Hate it? Wait for a better spot?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t3865)
UTG (t1085)
MP (t1560)
Button (t5075)
SB (t1915)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t1225</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t3865</font>,

[/ QUOTE ]

hate it. wait for a better spot. if the player is as good as you say or think he is, J /images/graemlins/club.gif10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif is'nt the type of hand i would want to get tangled up with all-in over the top. on the other hand, villian probably knows he could be crippled if he calls your bet with less than the goods so this could be a good move if he was raising with a suspect hand.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
villian probably knows he could be crippled if he calls your bet with less than the goods so this could be a good move if he was raising with a suspect hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, he had raised my blind every orbit for several orbits in a row. His raising range is very wide here.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
villian probably knows he could be crippled if he calls your bet with less than the goods so this could be a good move if he was raising with a suspect hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, he had raised my blind every orbit for several orbits in a row. His raising range is very wide here.

[/ QUOTE ]
But he's getting very close to 2:1 on your resteal...

[pokerlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
villian probably knows he could be crippled if he calls your bet with less than the goods so this could be a good move if he was raising with a suspect hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, he had raised my blind every orbit for several orbits in a row. His raising range is very wide here.

[/ QUOTE ]
But he's getting very close to 2:1 on your resteal...

[/ QUOTE ]

while he is getting around 2:1 - it is for so many chips that I dont feel he will call with a lot of the hands that he is raising w/ if he is as loose as the image portrays.

that said, I like to have something better than J10 before I do this, b/c if you call you are almost certainly a dog to his range. i might do this if he is really agro though...

[ QUOTE ]

But he's getting very close to 2:1 on your resteal...

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Isn't he committed here? I don't know if this is a push or not, but I expect to be called if I push.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
villian probably knows he could be crippled if he calls your bet with less than the goods so this could be a good move if he was raising with a suspect hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, he had raised my blind every orbit for several orbits in a row. His raising range is very wide here.

[/ QUOTE ]
But he's getting very close to 2:1 on your resteal...

[/ QUOTE ]

while he is getting around 2:1 - it is for so many chips that I dont feel he will call with a lot of the hands that he is raising w/ if he is as loose as the image portrays.

that said, I like to have something better than J10 before I do this, b/c if you call you are almost certainly a dog to his range. i might do this if he is really agro though...

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly, that's my point. if you're gonna test him for all your chips, i'm looking for a better hand than J 10o. his raising range may be wide, but he could very well have a monster this time so him raising your blind for the past several orbits is'nt a good enough reason to go over the top all-in with such a suspect hand yourself [durron].

[Jman28]

I agree with most of the responses.

I love the idea of the play, but the actual hand not so much. The pot odds you're giving him makes it too likely for him to call you, which would be a disaster.

[TheSalche]

frankly not all players think in terms of pot odds (which is a good thing in certain cases) and while he may have the odds to do so, he probably isnt calling unless he has AQ+ and 88+ ... i like the idea, and it really doesnt matter too much what your cards are here, but jack10 isnt a terrible holding

1) did he call?

2) I like the play, very gutsy, but I don't think this would be a smart play to try again if you got away with it this time

[Lori]

and a lot of other pots too

Let someone else be the first to crack up.

Lori

[adanthar]

In order for this play to work, you must know two things:

1)That the guy is a LAG (insert large percentage of all low limit players here)
2)That the guy can fold a hand (hah)

So anyway, FPS.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

So anyway, FPS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah...like I was saying in Scuba's thread:

Required reading for Durron. (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=&amp;Number=536137&amp;page=4&amp;view =collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1)

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Yugoslav

[The Yugoslavian]

Durron,

The next time you're tempted to make a similar move where it's very likely you'll be called and busted like a chump...

I beg you to just dwell on this one thought:

http://69.93.50.122/wonderfulgirls/photos/39ADB76A6FB711D4855800062950B7A0.jpg

Yugoslav

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
frankly not all players think in terms of pot odds (which is a good thing in certain cases) and while he may have the odds to do so, he probably isnt calling unless he has AQ+ and 88+ ... i like the idea, and it really doesnt matter too much what your cards are here, but jack10 isnt a terrible holding

[/ QUOTE ]
Getting 2:1, there is no way in hell Villain's range is that tight.

[durron597]

Alright, I had a whole long reply here for my 4000th post, but as usual, the curse of writing a whole long reply is that you will inevitably close the browser by accident.

Alright, suffice to say I gave reasons why his calling range is probably AQ+,88+. No, lastchance, it is that small, because he has steal equity and I've been playing pretty tight, he has no reason to put me on such a weak hand. So I'm 31.6% against his range.

Prize pool equity(push) = .1981x + .1273
Prize pool equity(fold) = .2596

.1323 &lt; .1981x

x &gt; 66%. Which means I need him to fold only 2/3 of the time or more to make pushing here +EV. Obviously there are tweak factors that make x higher, but given the fact that I have reason to believe he's raising any two and that I think he's capable of a fold I think this move is +EV.

Comments?

[durron597]

Clearly no one thought my thought process post was worth a reply. How about a results post?

He folded, and I won the SnG.

[Ixnert]

[ QUOTE ]

x &gt; 66%. Which means I need him to fold only 2/3 of the time or more to make pushing here +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think he folds here fully 2/3 of the time? I like the move in general, but I really don't think he's laying down quite that often. You say you've been tight, what range do you think he might put you on (and is he really likely to be a 2:1 dog to it?)?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

You say you've been tight, what range do you think he might put you on (and is he really likely to be a 2:1 dog to it?)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I can guarantee you that JTo is not in the range /images/graemlins/smile.gif

He probably puts me on AJs+/AQo+/88+ with maybe a little wiggle room on ATs/AJo/77 and MAYBE KQs/ATo/66 but I doubt it.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, I had a whole long reply here for my 4000th post, but as usual, the curse of writing a whole long reply is that you will inevitably close the browser by accident.

Alright, suffice to say I gave reasons why his calling range is probably AQ+,88+. No, lastchance, it is that small, because he has steal equity and I've been playing pretty tight, he has no reason to put me on such a weak hand. So I'm 31.6% against his range.

Prize pool equity(push) = .1981x + .1273
Prize pool equity(fold) = .2596

.1323 &lt; .1981x

x &gt; 66%. Which means I need him to fold only 2/3 of the time or more to make pushing here +EV. Obviously there are tweak factors that make x higher, but given the fact that I have reason to believe he's raising any two and that I think he's capable of a fold I think this move is +EV.

Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think the odds that he folds 77/AJ are ~ 0%. i think a more reasonable range is 66+ / A8+ / KJ+.

it's true that he would like to hang on to his stack to keep stealing, but if he busts you he will have an uber stack and can run stuff over for a while.

[IdiotVig]

[ QUOTE ]
x &gt; 66%. Which means I need him to fold only 2/3 of the time or more to make pushing here +EV. Obviously there are tweak factors that make x higher, but given the fact that I have reason to believe he's raising any two and that I think he's capable of a fold I think this move is +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Granted, it's read-dependent, but is someone who seems "quite good for a 16" capable of laying down a hand getting 2-1 pot odds two-thirds+ of the time?

That's not tongue-in-cheek; if the answer's yes, can that kind of player still be labeled as "quite good for a 16" turbo? I'm curious. I've only played the 6.50 turbos.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
KJ+

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you really call with KJ if you know that:

1) Villian is tight
2) You are running over the table anyway
3) You are getting only exactly 2:1
4) You are the shortest stack at the table if you lose

The same applies for A8, especially against an opponent you percieve as tight, you are pretty much always crushed against a typical tight opponent's range.

[Ixnert]

No pokerstove at hand, so I'm going by memory here.

But assuming he acts 100% according to pot odds (which, I know, is possibly a tenuous assumption), for him to think he's a 2:1 dog, wouldn't he have to think there was a large chance that you were on either a hand that dominated his (in which case you're 70-75%) or an overpair to his hand (80-85%)? Even if he thinks you have a pair between his two cards he's still like 35%, if memory serves.

So if he puts you on the range you suspect, he might drop little aces, hands without at least a queen or so, and little pairs. Doesn't seem like those would make up 2/3 of his raising range to begin with, which is what you need. (Put another way, if you figure he might call you with approximately top 15% hands, which he probably should, he needs to have been raising nearly half, which seems possible but unlikely.)

So it really comes down to whether you think villain will ignore the pot odds and fold anyway often enough to make up the difference. Which you apparently did. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

That's not tongue-in-cheek; if the answer's yes, can that kind of player still be labeled as "quite good for a 16" turbo?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not factoring the fact that as a decent player he will think about what I have and how his hand fares against my range. That's why I'm raising, because I think he will percieve my pushing range as much tighter than it actually is.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
he needs to have been raising nearly half, which seems possible but unlikely

[/ QUOTE ]

He was raising more than half the pots. Closer to 65%.

[tigerite]

It's certainly a ballsy move. I've done similar in the past, but it doesn't always work /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Ixnert]

[ QUOTE ]
It's certainly a ballsy move. I've done similar in the past, but it doesn't always work /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. I'd be a lot more comfortable with it with slightly larger stacks or a slightly smaller raise from villain, but I think it's a close call (and certainly a reasonable play) here. Just don't count on being able to do it twice. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
KJ+

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you really call with KJ if you know that:

1) Villian is tight
2) You are running over the table anyway
3) You are getting only exactly 2:1
4) You are the shortest stack at the table if you lose

The same applies for A8, especially against an opponent you percieve as tight, you are pretty much always crushed against a typical tight opponent's range.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you're going to give the opp credit, you should also give him credit to recognize that you're going to be playing back with marginal hands. do you have some reason to believe that he's good enough to fold but not good enough to know to loosen his calling standards b/c he's been opening so much?

[ QUOTE ]
2) You are running over the table anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

that's going to be seriously hurt if he folds - you'll be around tied for first and the fold is a "black mark" against his FE.

and no, i don't think that i would call KJ. but i'd probably call KQs. and that doesn't mean that this dude wouldn't call KJ, and maybe worse.

[maddog2030]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you really call with KJ if you know that:

1) Villian is tight
2) You are running over the table anyway
3) You are getting only exactly 2:1
4) You are the shortest stack at the table if you lose

The same applies for A8, especially against an opponent you percieve as tight, you are pretty much always crushed against a typical tight opponent's range.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a good amount of Party $55ers who don't think that much about a hand.

[Matt R.]

I'm surprised no one thought this was a good play. Risky, sure, but it's got to be +EV if the guy was raising 65% of the time preflop (your estimate I believe). Unless he's a maniac with his calls too, you have tons of FE here, and this might be your last opportunity to have any FE once he steals these blinds from you -- his stack will be too big and yours too small. Plus, it's not like JTo is 23o. I like it as long as you're confident in your reads on villain.

BTW, if I were villain in this hand, 2:1 pot odds to call would mean much less to me than going from 3800 to 1200 if I call and lose. I'm going to need a fairly strong hand to call here, and if I'm raising 65% of the time it's probably not strong enough.

[45suited]

Durron, against the right opponent, I like your play alot. I just did the same thing against a loose button raiser with QTs (not that the cards are all that relevant). Nice play.

I haven't read all the replies yet, but I'm guessing that he folded to your push. I'll have to see now...

Nice play either way, though, IMO. You can't let the guy do that all day to you and it's not like you were on the bubble where you could just play passively and slide ITM.

(Well, looking at the chipstacks, I suppose you could have slid ITM, but this merely serves to add greater strength to your push, since you were not desperate. Again, I like it.)

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
i think the odds that he folds 77/AJ are ~ 0%. i think a more reasonable range is 66+ / A8+ / KJ+.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not Durron's point in making the re-raise. His point is that the bigstack is raising with any two.

And just because he's getting 2:1 does not mean that he will call when Durron can put a big dent into his stack. There are times in games where I don't call getting 2:1 due to chipstack considerations. The fact that Durron absolutely does not have to make this move is a great show of strength to the initial raiser.

[jeffraider]

I like it, given your read and the previous action. He's very likely to fold and if you do get called at least you have some kind of a hand.

[45suited]

I rarely make this kind of play (especially since at the lower levels they are so likely to call you) but at a certain point against certain opponents, you have to put a stop to this stuff.

One thing that nobody has mentioned when they talk about the likelihood of the villain calling is that if the guy is loose enough, there are actually times that you might even have the better hand while making this move (maybe not with TJo, but you never know).

[11t]

I wouldn't be surprised if hes calling with KJs/KQ as well.

However pot odds on the bubble (which 5 handed imo is pseudo-bubble time) really decrease in value. Playing by pot odds on the bubble completely flies in the face of many tournament concepts. We are not playing a cash game here. Who here calls getting odds for most of their stack on the bubble with rags when somebody pushes their BB? I definitely don't call off my 4xbb stack with 73os. Yes it is somewhat different because Villain does not have to worry about busting, however calling and losing here is going to put him at a very very real risk of not making the money.

Yes he might be getting 2:1 but villain has to be afraid he is dominated. If he calls and loses he is going to be at 1200 and you are going to run over the table. Villain does not want that to occur.

If villain chose to race he is decreasing his and your equity while increasing the equity of everybody else at the table. Calling in villain's shoes without a good hand is suicidal.

Of course if I was villain I'd just push preflop but I'm a douche like that.

Anyways, I would prefer this move with more chips to lessen his odds but against a very aggressive player I like this.

I always say "f**k this guy" before I push all-in

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't be surprised if hes calling with KJs/KQ as well.

However pot odds on the bubble (which 5 handed imo is pseudo-bubble time) really decrease in value. Playing by pot odds on the bubble completely flies in the face of many tournament concepts. We are not playing a cash game here. Who here calls getting odds for most of their stack on the bubble with rags when somebody pushes their BB?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes he might be getting 2:1 but villain has to be afraid he is dominated. If he calls and loses he is going to be at 1200 and you are going to run over the table. Villain does not want that to occur.

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to eleventy he is wise.

[ QUOTE ]

Of course if I was villain I'd just push preflop but I'm a douche like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what he should have done.

[ QUOTE ]

Anyways, I would prefer this move with more chips to lessen his odds but against a very aggressive player I like this.

I always say "f**k this guy" before I push all-in

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Honestly, this is what is meant by playing for first. This should be a very rarely used play against the right opponents in the right situations. There is no reason to try to fold into second here, Villian really could have any two.

What's interesting is that in this SnG this villian happened to pick up a bunch of hands in the next few orbits and busted all three of the other players, so I started HU down 2:1. If I fold this hand I'm down 3:1 or worse when HU starts and it would have been extremely difficult to come back to win.

[11t]

Fortune favors the bold sir.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think the odds that he folds 77/AJ are ~ 0%. i think a more reasonable range is 66+ / A8+ / KJ+.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not Durron's point in making the re-raise. His point is that the bigstack is raising with any two.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

durron wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, suffice to say I gave reasons why his calling range is probably AQ+,88+.

[/ QUOTE ]

even if we believe that villain is opening any 2, it's crucial to come up with a reasonable estimate of what he's going to call a push with. you can debate what the range is, but saying the range is not important to discuss doesn't make any sense.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
you can debate what the range is, but saying the range is not important to discuss doesn't make any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's truly important is the difference between his raising range (likely any two) and his calling range (certainly much tighter than any two). I gave one set of numbers where he has to fold 2/3 of the time for the move to be +$EV. But even if it's 3/4, if he's raising top 60% and calling top 15% it's still +$EV.

And remember, if he does call you can still always suck out.

[therock]

"Stars $16 turbo. This player seemed quite good for a $16. He had raised my blind every orbit for several orbits, and a lot of other pots too. Love it? Hate it? Wait for a better spot?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (5 handed) converter

Hero (t3865)
UTG (t1085)
MP (t1560)
Button (t5075)
SB (t1915)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, T.
2 folds, Button raises to t1225, 1 fold, Hero raises to t3865"

Don't remember how, but I had accumulated the big stack. The opponent between Durron and I is about the tightest player in the world and usually 4-tables. The tight player had the #3 stack and Durron had the #2 stack. I had stole their blinds for several orbits. Since the SB was so tight I was raising Durron with any two. I had stole Durron's blinds so many times that I figured he had 4 tables going and did not even notice. When he played back, it was an auto muck. Don't remember what I had (any two). I did not care about pot odds because I knew I could continue stealing both the SB and Durron's blinds if I kept a relatively healthy stack.

Nice play Durron. And P.S., you needed a couple of suck-outs to win.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
even if we believe that villain is opening any 2, it's crucial to come up with a reasonable estimate of what he's going to call a push with. you can debate what the range is, but saying the range is not important to discuss doesn't make any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said villain's calling range isn't important, but the real reason behind the push has more to do with villain's RAISING range than it does his CALLING range.

Durron's push was based almost entirely upon villain's loose raising range. If he actually HAS a hand, of course we assume he's calling. But he likely doesn't have a hand... we just have to hope that he doesn't make a pot odds call.

It's just a bonus that we have a hand that is capable of sucking out against legitimate hands on the off chance that the actaully villain has one. But there are some very aggressive players who probably would have made Durron's move with any two cards. (Not me, I'm not that ballsy yet.)

But there's no point getting too caught up in the villain's calling range here, since essentially, Durron is gambling his stack on the belief that the villain is raising with any two.

[jeffraider]

Hahaha I say f*ck this guy as I push from the SB.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Nice play Durron. And P.S., you needed a couple of suck-outs to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought there was a good chance you were 2+2 /images/graemlins/smile.gif

And if you consider K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif vs. K8 on a (KxTxQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif)(A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif)(8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif) a suckout it isn't one - unless you mean suckout to not chopping. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

And 33 vs. QTo is also not a suckout, I was a slight favorite /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

But yeah, when HU went:

I push he folds
He pushes I fold
I push he folds
He pushes I fold
I push he folds

etc. etc. etc.

I thought there was a decent chance you were 2+2 /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Also, I did notice how aggro you were being with the blinds much earlier than this hand - despite the fact that I was 3 tabling - but this is the kind of play I only make when I'm *certain* your raising range is in the realm of any two.

Edit: the guy between us I only have 2 SnGs on, he is 27.71/15.66 after 83 hands, not that tight but I guess reasonably so. The guy who was in the 7 seat in that SnG is the tighest player ever, 25.45/0 (yes, that's a 0 PFR%).

[schwza]

to take an extreme example, if villain is stealing with any 2 and calling with any 2, then pushing JT is obviously wrong. i'm not saying he's anywhere near that loose, only that you need to know both calling and raising standards.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
to take an extreme example, if villain is stealing with any 2 and calling with any 2, then pushing JT is obviously wrong. i'm not saying he's anywhere near that loose, only that you need to know both calling and raising standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you can be anywhere near precise here. The play is made because he thinks that the villain is raising with air.

To think that you can put a calling range on a guy who you've never played with before is a little optimistic. This is almost strictly a balls play. Durron reads him for nothing. If he's right, he likely takes the pot. If he's wrong, it's a bonus that he has TJ, which still has winning chances against a reasonable range of hands.

This isn't really a hand where plugging ranges into a software program is going to give you a simple answer. This hand is based on having the guts to trust your read.

[therock]

[ QUOTE ]


And if you consider K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif vs. K8 on a (KxTxQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif)(A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif)(8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif) a suckout it isn't one - unless you mean suckout to not chopping. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

And 33 vs. QTo is also not a suckout, I was a slight favorite /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif



[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, I forgot about those two hands. I just remembered a river I did not like and forgot that I started the hand as a big dog.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Don't remember how, but I had accumulated the big stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1410)
MP2 (t1065)
MP3 (t1250)
CO (t1155)
Button (t1180)
SB (t1435)
BB (t1450)
UTG <font color="#A500AF">(therock)</font> (t2320)
UTG+1 (t2235)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG <font color="#A500AF">(therock)</font> raises to t300</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls t300, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>.

Flop: (t750) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">therock bets t1000</font>, MP3 calls t950 (All-In).

Turn: (t2700) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t2700) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2700

Final Pot: t2700

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
therock has Ks Ad (one pair, aces).
MP3 has Js Jd (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: therock wins t2700. </font>

[therock]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Don't remember how, but I had accumulated the big stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1410)
MP2 (t1065)
MP3 (t1250)
CO (t1155)
Button (t1180)
SB (t1435)
BB (t1450)
UTG <font color="#A500AF">(therock)</font> (t2320)
UTG+1 (t2235)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG <font color="#A500AF">(therock)</font> raises to t300</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls t300, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>.

Flop: (t750) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">therock bets t1000</font>, MP3 calls t950 (All-In).

Turn: (t2700) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t2700) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2700

Final Pot: t2700

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
therock has Ks Ad (one pair, aces).
MP3 has Js Jd (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: therock wins t2700. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Not exactly my favorite play. A T300-T400 continuation bet and then folding to raise seemed real weak. The stacks sizes and pot were right for a push. I figured to take the pot down 50% of the time and needing help vs 88-JJ the other 50%.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Not exactly my favorite play. A T300-T400 continuation bet and then folding to raise seemed real weak. The stacks sizes and pot were right for a push. I figured to take the pot down 50% of the time and needing help vs 88-JJ the other 50%.

[/ QUOTE ]

That guy was another one of those "0% PFR" people. I would have checked this flop I think.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
to take an extreme example, if villain is stealing with any 2 and calling with any 2, then pushing JT is obviously wrong. i'm not saying he's anywhere near that loose, only that you need to know both calling and raising standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think durron is right that the calling range will be reasonably tight. You raise a good point that players who lag it up this much generally know that they have to call with some more mediocre holdings. But, this isn't that common a situation in SNGs, because the stacks usually aren't deep enough long enough to make restealing feasible all that often. So I think people don't get restolen from often enough to loosen up their standards. Higher level thinking is good, but remember that the opponent also has to give you credit for being a good player, which won't necessarily happen at a single $16 SNG. There are plenty of tight opponents here who when they do play back will definitely have a hand.

As a final point, yes he's getting 2:1 to call, but what does this look like from an ICM perspective? My guess is that because there are three pretty small stacks already, taking durron's stack won't be nearly as beneficial to him as losing his stack would be costly. Combined with successful stealing, this should make a good player somewhat less likely than usual to call here.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

As a final point, yes he's getting 2:1 to call, but what does this look like from an ICM perspective?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. For the last time, if you think you are in a AK vs. 76 situation getting 2:1 is NOT ENOUGH! It is a 0 EV Play or maybe very very slightly cEV positive. And ICM easily more than makes up for it when it says when you call you give up equity at the expense of the shorter stacks. He would need a good deal more than 2:1 to make calling with any two correct. And if he has a hand like A2o, this is a VERY EASY muck unless he has a reason to believe a good % of my range does not contain an ace or a pair (which based on the way I was playing, he doesn't).

[durron597]

Damn Yugo, she is awesome, you tempted me to actaully go find more pictures of her /images/graemlins/smile.gif

http://photos.allcelebs.us/nikki-visser/big-photo/nikki-visser_0001.jpg

[barry111]

I was the guy with JJ. I made a donk play early on (FPS) and then I sat tight unitil this JJ hand, which I was pushing regardless of a bet by therock.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I was the guy with JJ. I made a donk play early on (FPS) and then I sat tight unitil this JJ hand, which I was pushing regardless of a bet by therock.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hm, looks like there are a lot more 2+2ers playing these things than I thought...

Why didn't you push preflop?

[barry111]

Because therock opened for a 3xBB raise in EP, I had position and I wated to see the texture of the flop before committing the rest of my chips. For example if an A fell on the flop and he push into me I might be able to let go of this hand. What I should have said above was
[ QUOTE ]
I was the guy with JJ. I made a donk play early on (FPS) and then I sat tight unitil this JJ hand, which I was pushing regardless of a bet by therock on that flop .

[/ QUOTE ]

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Because therock opened for a 3xBB raise in EP, I had position and I wated to see the texture of the flop before committing the rest of my chips. For example if an A fell on the flop and he push into me I might be able to let go of this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you knew that therock was in fact an aggressive 2+2er then I like the call. I push against an unknown though a lot of the time.

[barry111]

therock seemed LAG to me, but I did not know he was a 2+2er