How much to bet on river after turn check raise?

[FreakDaddy]

Call out of the blind to the mini-rasie was actually a mis-click, I thought I was just completing. I don't normally call any kind of raise with a drawing hand OOP, unless there's a lot of money on the table. Villian is a bit of a gambler and aggresive, so his range of hands could be wide here. I can see him betting and calling a turn check-raise with a draw. So he could have Ax, busted draw, two pair, not entirely sure. I've been back and forth on these kinds of hands lately about what to bet on the end when I'm not entirely sure what a players has, but I hold the nuts or close to it. Just go for a value bet, pot it or push it?

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.25 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($29.20)
UTG+1 ($17.50)
MP1 ($26.05)
MP2 ($13.45)
MP3 ($8.40)
CO ($16.20)
Button ($10.80)
Hero ($25.45)
BB ($24.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $0.5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $0.40, BB calls $0.25, UTG calls $0.25.

Flop: ($2) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets $0.25</font>, Hero calls $0.25, BB folds, UTG calls $0.25.

Turn: ($2.75) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $2.75</font>, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, UTG calls $5.25.

River: ($18.75) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $15</font>, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $33.75

[djoyce003]

too much, i'd bet half the pot....you have the nuts you want a call....not sure he's calling that big a bet here. On a side note if the villain has a missed flush draw it doesn't really matter what you buy.

[edge]

Whoa, the flop play is really bad. Going for a checkraise of the preflop raiser is cool if you think he'll toss out a continuation bet after a minraise preflop. Smoothcalling a minbet with four players in a raised pot is not good. You flopped the nuts. Build the pot and try to get all-in. Since the pot is juiced with four callers, it shouldn't be too hard. Start by betting 1.50 or checkraising a good amount.

You flopped the nuts, but straights are generally quite vulnerable. I don't like to slowplay this.

[Allinlife]

the slowplay is horrible. bet out on flop or make a 2/3 pot size check raise.

I think half the posts on ssnl could be reduced if people can learn to bet their sets, straight, flush, 2pairs instead of go for a checkraise and feel screwed as scarecards come.

get the friggin money in when you are the favorite. poker is that simple!

[Malachii]

I'd pot the flop. Betting 10$ on the river seems fine.

[imported_anacardo]

[ QUOTE ]
the slowplay is horrible. bet out on flop or make a 2/3 pot size check raise.

I think half the posts on ssnl could be reduced if people can learn to bet their sets, straight, flush, 2pairs instead of go for a checkraise and feel screwed as scarecards come.

get the friggin money in when you are the favorite. poker is that simple!

[/ QUOTE ]

The spirit here is spot-on, but I question the tactical advice.

I would add:

One does not check-raise a flop with the nut straight on a rainbow board!

That = a limit play (and a questionable one there) and is completely inappropriate in big-bet poker.

The checkraise in NL is used to accomplish one of two goals, generally speaking:

1) Suck a little extra money out of an aggressive opponent / big field and scare him/them into folding all on the same round, without getting any further cards. Nice idea for a hand that's likely to currently be best but is otherwise vulnerable, e.g. top-and-bottom pair in a multiway pot on a moderately coordinated board.

2) Represent same, with, say, a strong but not monster draw. You're moving in before your opponent has a chance to get too commited &amp; thus increasing your fold equity, but a call doesn't put you in too bad shape. Flush draw + gutshot with unders, for example.

In this case, you have neither sort of hand; you have the nuts. One may argue the merits of slowplaying the flop, which appears quite safe, and leading the turn vs. playing it fast from the get-go, but the governing principle is this:

You're not looking to take a tasty little chunk out of Villain's stack (checkraise.) You want the whole thing (lead/reraise.)

[NYCNative]

Pot the flop, raise the turn is fine and, as this one was played, I bet about $5-8 on the river as I don't see villain paying off much more than that.

[edge]

[ QUOTE ]
I would add:

One does not check-raise a flop with the nut straight on a rainbow board!

That = a limit play (and a questionable one there) and is completely inappropriate in big-bet poker.

The checkraise in NL is used to accomplish one of two goals

[/ QUOTE ]

You absolutely must mix up your game in order to be a good NL player. If your checkraises always mean one thing and your bet/reraises always mean another thing, you won't be able to beat good players who figure you out. As long as you checkraise the flop with other hands, it shouldn't scream nuts.

[imported_anacardo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would add:

One does not check-raise a flop with the nut straight on a rainbow board!

That = a limit play (and a questionable one there) and is completely inappropriate in big-bet poker.

The checkraise in NL is used to accomplish one of two goals

[/ QUOTE ]

You absolutely must mix up your game in order to be a good NL player. If your checkraises always mean one thing and your bet/reraises always mean another thing, you won't be able to beat good players who figure you out. As long as you checkraise the flop with other hands, it shouldn't scream nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

With regards to tough, attentive games I believe you are correct. You should occasionally bet or check-raise hands that belong in the "other" category to keep observant players in line.

However, I reaffirm my previous post as containing the "default" lines for the hands described.

In that vein, I would generally regard a check-raise from a really skilled player who knows how to bet as a sign of weakness.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
Whoa, the flop play is really bad. Going for a checkraise of the preflop raiser is cool if you think he'll toss out a continuation bet after a minraise preflop. Smoothcalling a minbet with four players in a raised pot is not good. You flopped the nuts. Build the pot and try to get all-in. Since the pot is juiced with four callers, it shouldn't be too hard. Start by betting 1.50 or checkraising a good amount.

You flopped the nuts, but straights are generally quite vulnerable. I don't like to slowplay this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm...
The hand was mini-raised. I should check it to the mini-raiser? /images/graemlins/smile.gif Second, what hands do you think are going to stay along for a flop check-raise on this board? Only an over pair, which is unlikely or a set. If there's a set out there, I'd rather him try and raise me on the flop so I have a better chance of getting him in on the turn.