Two Hands from today

[Jman28]

I'll give you my reads this post, and respond with my thoughts next.

This first hand was early in the tourney. I didn't have many reads except that I'd seen the initial minraiser minraise before this game, but never saw his hand.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t1000)
Hero (t1000)
MP1 (t1000)
MP2 (t1000)
MP3 (t1075)
CO (t1105)
Button (t975)
SB (t940)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t905)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t15, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t30</font>, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t45</font>, BB calls t30, Hero calls t30, MP1 calls t15, MP2 calls t15, CO calls t15.

Flop: (t267.50) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t75</font>, BB calls t75, Hero ?


In this next one, the villain was the minreraiser from the above hand. If it matters what he had then, here it is in white: <font color="white"> JJ </font>

My other read on him was that he had minbet a flop after minraising preflop, and folded to a pot size raise. That hand though, he bet t15 into t145, so this is different.

These hands are the hardest for me, so I definitely could use feedback. How's my flop bet?

What do you do here? If you don't fold, what's your plan for the rest of the hand?


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1895)
Hero (t885)
UTG (t285)
MP1 (t2770)
MP2 (t1810)
CO (t1110)
Button (t1245)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls t50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t150) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t80</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t160</font>, SB folds, Hero ?

[freemoney]

first hand its unlikely they both have worse hands and that you will win with an unimproved 99 i might call the flop and re-evaluate but i think folding is ok, on 2nd hand i like to c/r here alot more than lead out, i think villian is much more capable minraising with air then calling a c/r with and it make the hand much tougher to play leading out imo.

[Jman28]

The first hand, the minraising confused the hell outta me. Preflop though, I figured I don't really care whether they have AA or 72o right now, I still have the right price to hit a set.

On the flop, I had an overpair with a bet and call in front of me, and a few players still to act, including a pf minraiser. I'm either way behind, or a little bit ahead.

I thought this was a pretty easy fold.

Hand 2. I really hate these spots as I said before.

I really thought he would do this with overcards, as he seemed to be a very strange player.

I called the flop raise with no real plan for the turn.

Turn brought a 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I checked and he bet 150. This should've set off warning bells, since I hadn't seen him make a non min bet as a bluff. I had just picked up a gutshot though, and was still unsure of his strength. I had good pot odds, so I talked myself into a call that I shouldn't have made probably.

River brought J /images/graemlins/club.gif

I check, he bets 150 again. I called with the pot odds, although this was probably a bad call too.

In hindsight, I believe I should've either folded the flop or the turn, with reraising the flop as the next best option.

Talk to me.

[willperkins]

First hand:

Tough hand. I could really be wrong with this one, so I would love to see other 2+2ers that are better than me tell me how to play it.

I can see why you called the raise and reraise since you are getting 6 to 1 odds, but I would be really nervous with all those people behind you still to act. The question in my mind is "Why the litty bitty raises and reraises?"



That being said, with the bet of t75 and a call, I would have to bet to see where I was in the hand and try to chase anyone out with an Ace or King. I would bet about t300. That would give anyone drawing to a str8 or flush the improper odds to call.

This may be a leak in my game, if so, someone please let me know.

It would also let me know if the SB or BB was serious about the hand. If either of them call, I would then be real careful with the turn.



Second hand:

Your bet looks fine to me. He raises you, so let it go. You took a shot with middle pair and a weak kicker and he raised you. You still have plenty of chips, therefore, I would not get into a battle with this hand. Let it go and fight another day.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]

Your bet looks fine to me. He raises you, so let it go. You took a shot with middle pair and a weak kicker and he raised you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't disagree with you, but I have a problem with the thinking. This is kind of a general problem I have.

If I should bet and fold here, and assume that I would also bet and check-fold if called, does my hand matter at all? I may as well be on a pure bluff, unless somehow the hand is checked down to the river. (or I hit 2 pair)

You know what I mean? If he's only calling with better than a pair of sixes, and folding with worse, why does my pair of 6s have any value?

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
If I should bet and fold here, and assume that I would also bet and check-fold if called, does my hand matter at all? I may as well be on a pure bluff,

[/ QUOTE ]

uh oh.. someone is uncovering the secrets of becoming a good poker player.. /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[microbet]

Six people see a coordinated flop, two people are ok with it, I don't think your overpair is good enough. Either you are beat badly or there are a lot of outs for them to get you.

Second hand: folds. I think the flop bet is a close call.

[microbet]

It has more value if he calls than a pure bluff would. You can improve to 2 pair or trips. It could end up being checked down and you could win. Still, you are certainly hoping for a fold, even if you are ahead.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]

If I should bet and fold here, and assume that I would also bet and check-fold if called, does my hand matter at all? I may as well be on a pure bluff, unless somehow the hand is checked down to the river. (or I hit 2 pair)


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

It has more value if he calls than a pure bluff would. You can improve to 2 pair or trips. It could end up being checked down and you could win. Still, you are certainly hoping for a fold, even if you are ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for repeating the exceptions. (pretend I put a wink smiley here so you know I mean this jokingly... I don't use the smileys)

Even with those few advantages to having a hand, I feel like there combined probabilities are fairly minimal. Almost small enough to make them not matter at all. (plus we can subtract some value from that for the times we improve to a good 2nd best handand lose a bunch of chips)

[microbet]

I appreciate you not using smileys.

Ok, you win. You were wrong. You made a smallish bluff into a somewhat laggy donk. Now that you got him to put in 160 chips you are fully engaged in a game of chicken, and he's not a chicken. I'm pretty weak-tight, so I usually check/fold my 2nd-pair-crappy-kickers. [someone else might put a smiley face here]

[The Student]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Your bet looks fine to me. He raises you, so let it go. You took a shot with middle pair and a weak kicker and he raised you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't disagree with you, but I have a problem with the thinking. This is kind of a general problem I have.

If I should bet and fold here, and assume that I would also bet and check-fold if called, does my hand matter at all? I may as well be on a pure bluff, unless somehow the hand is checked down to the river. (or I hit 2 pair)

You know what I mean? If he's only calling with better than a pair of sixes, and folding with worse, why does my pair of 6s have any value?

[/ QUOTE ]

lately i've been struggling with these issues too. i still need a lot more experience before i begin to trust my feel in these situations, but i can tell you that i despise these situations in SNGs because you just don't have enough chips to investigate these times when your min-raiser is pressuring you with air (or top two, who knows?). it may be different at the $55 and over stakes (I still play the $22s with 800 starting chips), where you have some more chips to play with, but you still don't have a lot of excess chips to burn.

I played the $350K guaranteed yesterday on PP and early on I was sitting to the left of a big stack who was min-raising 4/10 hands if not more. i played with him for about 45 minutes and I only saw him re-raised once! obviously people often had better cards than he did, but we were all too scared to do anything about it.

what am I trying to say in all this rambling? three thoughts:
1. I'm having problems with these situations too
2. I am going to try to develop my feel for these situations by playing more limit games as opposed to tourneys (because I can afford to try out different things here without the possibility of being knocked out of the game)
3. I'm going to re-read the section in Harrington's 2nd book on continuation bets and how to defend against them.

gl,

ts-

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
The first hand, the minraising confused the hell outta me. Preflop though, I figured I don't really care whether they have AA or 72o right now, I still have the right price to hit a set.

On the flop, I had an overpair with a bet and call in front of me, and a few players still to act, including a pf minraiser. I'm either way behind, or a little bit ahead.

I thought this was a pretty easy fold.

Hand 2. I really hate these spots as I said before.

I really thought he would do this with overcards, as he seemed to be a very strange player.

I called the flop raise with no real plan for the turn.

Turn brought a 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I checked and he bet 150. This should've set off warning bells, since I hadn't seen him make a non min bet as a bluff. I had just picked up a gutshot though, and was still unsure of his strength. I had good pot odds, so I talked myself into a call that I shouldn't have made probably.

River brought J /images/graemlins/club.gif

I check, he bets 150 again. I called with the pot odds, although this was probably a bad call too.

In hindsight, I believe I should've either folded the flop or the turn, with reraising the flop as the next best option.

Talk to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

My actions were already posted up there.

Hand 1: Both the min-raiser and min-reraiser had JJ and split.

Hand 2: Villain had Q /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif, and I lost a decent chunk of my stack.

[Newt_Buggs]

hand 1 is an easy fold, even though I probably didn't need to repeat that

hand 2: the miniraise looks like he wants action. I've only played a couple of $215s and never touched a step 5, but I've seen little post oak bluffing in SNGs. I'de just let this one go to the miniraise.

[ QUOTE ]
If I should bet and fold here, and assume that I would also bet and check-fold if called, does my hand matter at all? I may as well be on a pure bluff,

[/ QUOTE ]
that is why I would bet any two on this flop

At least at the 100s there are a lot of loose passive donks so my hand does matter. I will bet out here and they will only call with the 88 or T9 that they limped in, giving me a free shot to catch up that I wouldn't have with 2,3o.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
If I should bet and fold here, and assume that I would also bet and check-fold if called, does my hand matter at all? I may as well be on a pure bluff, unless somehow the hand is checked down to the river. (or I hit 2 pair)

You know what I mean? If he's only calling with better than a pair of sixes, and folding with worse, why does my pair of 6s have any value?

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting posts today, Jman.

As a corollary to this thinking, here's a thought that's been running through my mind a lot lately...

My opponents don't bluff as much as I think they should.

edit: I should have qualified this with a couple things. First, I'm playing the $55s and $33s lately, not the Step 5s. Second, I'm not talking about the obvious crazy laggy guys - we know they'll make plays are pretty easily identified if you're paying some attention. I'm talking about everyone else.

[fluorescenthippo]

[ QUOTE ]


If I should bet and fold here, and assume that I would also bet and check-fold if called, does my hand matter at all? I may as well be on a pure bluff, unless somehow the hand is checked down to the river. (or I hit 2 pair)

You know what I mean? If he's only calling with better than a pair of sixes, and folding with worse, why does my pair of 6s have any value?

[/ QUOTE ]

good question. wouldnt the value of your hand change depending on who called? if Co folded and SB called you could check the turn and call the river, or bet the turn and check the river.