Is this about right? J10s limp re-raise . . .

[neon]

I love to limp reraise, and I want to start using the move more often, but don't want to narrow my hand range down to two or so hands to allow the good players at the table to play optimally vs. that range. So I decided to start LRR'ing w/ a few hands aside from the obvious ones.

I know that the LRR in general works billions of times better w/ deep stacks, but in terms of capped buyin games, does this seem about right?

Pokerroom 10-20 NL. Full ring.

Probably my third orbit at the table. My image is reasonable. I (~$2,200) limp UTG w/ J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif10/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, donk (~$1,400) to my left calls, unknown villain (~$1,800) calls in MP, LP (~$1,550) calls, button (good player, I respect his play and vice versa, I think) raises to $130, w/ ~$2,700 behind. Blinds fold, I make it $399. Donk folds, villain (ever so aptly named "Lord Rock") calls (!), LP folds, button thinks and folds.

($1,035) Flop is A /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I bet $1,000.

Comments?

[lapoker17]

Check the flop - Tight guys get nervous when you LRR and check the flop. Then play it like you have AA.

Or you could lead weak, begging for a call - If he raises, you have to come over the top.

[Big_Jim]

Hopefully you fast play your sets and villian knows this.

Rocky villian probably has AA-QQ and maybe AKs in his range to call the LRR, since he doesn't have odds to try to flop a set.

Villian probably puts you on AA-QQ and AKs.

Villian folds KK and QQ here (6 combos), and pushes with AA, (3 combos) , and probably AKs (3 combos).

Looks like you can fold half of his range, which should make this play profitable. If you get any action, you're done.

I too have been trying to LRR more often, with limited success. The only times the hand ever really seems to go well is when I actually have the goods.

The biggest problem I've had with the LRR is that you are basically forced to put in a big continuation bet, which hasn't been profitable for me, thus far.

[gomberg]

I like the play. This LRR takes down the pot preflop a huge majority of the time in the games I play - and even if called, you can make a hand, or have a nice huge bluff (which probably has a good percentage of winning) vs. a medium pocket or high ace.

I don't know if I like it as much with a hand like JTs though. I'd rather have low cards or a pair, as a lot of hands that hit JTs will also hit whomever calls you - plus you can be put in some crappy situations... maybe I'm wrong with this.

[neon]

[ QUOTE ]
villain (ever so aptly named "Lord Rock") calls (!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for being unclear, this was meant to be facetious.

[Big_Jim]

Oh yeah, and I don't really like the full pot bet on the flop, looks like a desparate KK. Bet like 2/3 the pot, it's more suspicious.

[neon]

[ QUOTE ]
Or you could lead weak, begging for a call - If he raises, you have to come over the top.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if he just calls? Push turn? CR turn? Check-fold?

[Big_Jim]

If you're going to play it like this, I like a check/call on the flop, and a big lead on the turn.

This line should have pretty good fold equity versus anything but a set.

[Post-Oak]

I hate the pot sized bet on the flop.

It's a rainbow board and your hands have been clearly defined (not really, but in his mind). The stacks are not nearly deep enough to warrant a pot sized bet here.

If you had AA or AK, would you really go ahead and bet the pot? He only has $1400 left, and the pot is already $1K. You should make it look like you want to get his money in steps.

You can check for deception purposes (and this could even give you a free card to a possible 5 outs) and then bet $500 or so on the turn.

But what I like is to bet $400 on this flop. This is what you would bet on this board if you had AK or AA.

If he calls or raises, you are done with the hand.

He played the hand strangely, and I think his most likely hands are AK, AA and KK (in that order). I would still throw that $400 bet out there though, and hope he had a strangely played KK.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
and hope he had a strangely played KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

You really think this is a strange line for KK so far?

You think most people 4-bet all in PF with KK?

In position, I think that KK is a very probable holding for villian, here.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
and hope he had a strangely played KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

You really think this is a strange line for KK so far?

You think everybody 4-bets all in PF with KK in this spot?

In position, I think that KK is a very probable holding for villian, here.

[lapoker17]

Opponent dependent, but I play it like AA. If there are no scary draws out, I just bet the whole way like I'm milking him - If he's a bad player, I play it more aggressively as we don't need AK calling us down, but the second you bet the flop as desperately as you did, a good player will know you don't like your hand.

Disclaimer is that in tough, much deeper games, you may want to make that flop bet as he knows, that you know, that he knows etc...

In your hand just ask yourself "how would I play AA here?".

[neon]

[ QUOTE ]
But what I like is to bet $400 on this flop. This is what you would bet on this board if you had AK or AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is wrong. I play everything fast. The only way I really like a bet like $400 is if it is w/ the intention of three-betting all-in. The problem w/ this is that w/ the stacks as such, a $400 bet followed by a three-bet push will have zero folding equity.

I'm not saying that my play was necessarily the right one, but I just wanted to point out that I would pot that flop w/ AA at least some of time. I don't think I'd ever be LRR'ing w/ AK, unless I thought there was an excellent chance that I'd just be picking up some dead money.

[neon]

[ QUOTE ]
Disclaimer is that in tough, much deeper games, you may want to make that flop bet as he knows, that you know, that he knows etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was going for. Only problem was the stacks weren't really deep enough--and villain probably wasn't tough enough--for this type of thinking to work . . .

Edited to add: Funny thing is, when I made the bet, I actually thought that it had decent folding equity vs. AK, KK and everything else save for JJ, for the reason lapoker alluded to. In retrospect, I think that check-call flop, push turn would have been a much better line . . . Villains that limp and then overcall $380 reraises preflop probably don't get away from AK all that often on this flop, esp. w/ stack and pot sizes as they are . . .

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I'd ever be LRR'ing w/ AK, unless I thought there was an excellent chance that I'd just be picking up some dead money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is obviously what you thought was the case here.... I hope.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

the pot sized bet on the flop seems pretty excessive since you're pretty much advertising AA here but you really have no choice but to bet. if this size is normal for you then you fold out enough hands to make it profitable.

on a side note, i've had trouble limp reraising thus far with the few times i've done it with weaker hands (mainly because my opponent hit the flop hard).

the problems with this play is:
1) you're building a pot out of position.
2) it's going to require you to put in a large bluff on the flop as a continuation bet.

these combinations have made it tough on me to really do it right.

[autobet]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, and I don't really like the full pot bet on the flop, looks like a desparate KK. Bet like 2/3 the pot, it's more suspicious.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]

You really think this is a strange line for KK so far?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, because he did not raise when he was in MP and two players had already limped.

[ QUOTE ]

You think most people 4-bet all in PF with KK?


[/ QUOTE ]

No. See above...

[ QUOTE ]

In position, I think that KK is a very probable holding for villian, here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said that I would think his most likely hands are AK, AA and KK, in that order. That means that I think KK is a possibility, but I wouldn't call it "very probable".

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
This is wrong. I play everything fast.


[/ QUOTE ]

You and the villain are unknown to each other, so this is irrlevant with regards to representing a hand or being tricky. Simply saying "I play everything fast" can not be an explanation in itself, it would have to be an opponent who is used to playing against you for this to make sense.

[ QUOTE ]

The only way I really like a bet like $400 is if it is w/ the intention of three-betting all-in. The problem w/ this is that w/ the stacks as such, a $400 bet followed by a three-bet push will have zero folding equity.


[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that you LRRed with garbage. You are of course not looking to 3 bet him all-in. What you are trying to do is represent a hand with which you would love to 3 bet him all-in. A $400 or $500 bet here let's the villain know he is playing for his stack, same as a $1K bet does. That's why I think the lower bet is superior, because you will lose less money when he calls.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying that my play was necessarily the right one, but I just wanted to point out that I would pot that flop w/ AA at least some of time. I don't think I'd ever be LRR'ing w/ AK, unless I thought there was an excellent chance that I'd just be picking up some dead money.

[/ QUOTE ]

In your post you said you wanted to LRR more. If this is your goal, I would recomend LRR more with AK and less with TJ.

The only reason to pot that flop with AA is to trick the opponent into thinking you would not do this with AA. A $1K bet here with AA equals a push. No way can he call, and then get away from the pot when he only has $400 left behind. Again, a push is equivalent to a $1K bet here due to his only having $1400 left.

A $400 or $500 sends almost the same exact message - "let's play for your stack". It also looks more like AA or AK to most unknown opponents (who don't know you like to play everything fast) than pushing/$1K does.

I guess what I am saying is that I would like the $1K bet more if you really did have AA. The problem is you had TJ.

[kagame]

check dark ;-)

actually ive had alot of success limp raising and then checking

bet the turn if they check behind, overpairs fold all day, it looks that strong

[Big_Jim]

Oops. I f-ed up. I thought villian was PF raiser.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
overpairs fold all day

[/ QUOTE ]

Not on this board, they don't.

[cero_z]

Hi neon,

[ QUOTE ]
Is this about right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Up until your flop bet, I'm with you. I think 500 will get it done on the flop, if it can be gotten done. If he puts another penny in the pot, I'm done.

[kagame]

only because its impossible, yeah