Party policy on "unfair advantage" software

[Derek in NYC]

They have added a link with greater discussion. Here. (http://www.partypoker.com/about_us/unfair_advantage_policy.html)

[illunious]

Looks like (personal DB/PT) HUDs, PT-type programs, odds calculators are officially OK. It's not clear whether they consider datamining programs to be bots, but it looks like they'd be ok.. " (“bots”) specifically created to play at a table in place". Glad they finally released some well written guidelines.

[ QUOTE ]
We do not suspend/cancel/freeze a player account or confiscate any funds in that account, unless that player, having been first notified by us, continues to play on our site using the same offending software.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a good thing. This means Ex-PokerEdge users (like me) that were warned can still use PV, GT+ or PokerAce HUDs, and if those are banned in the future, we'll get another warning. The warning email was unclear about this.. "If we detect that you continue to use such programs we will have no choice, but to bar you from our site...

[jba]

I am impressed by this. It's actually clear what the rules are now.

[OrcaDK]

Very cool to get this issue explained in further detail by Party. As far as i can understand, my MTH should also be allowed, according to their terms.

[smartalecc5]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like (personal DB/PT) HUDs, PT-type programs, odds calculators are officially OK. It's not clear whether they consider datamining programs to be bots, but it looks like they'd be ok.. " (“bots”) specifically created to play at a table in place". Glad they finally released some well written guidelines.

[ QUOTE ]
We do not suspend/cancel/freeze a player account or confiscate any funds in that account, unless that player, having been first notified by us, continues to play on our site using the same offending software.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a good thing. This means Ex-PokerEdge users (like me) that were warned can still use PV, GT+ or PokerAce HUDs, and if those are banned in the future, we'll get another warning. The warning email was unclear about this.. "If we detect that you continue to use such programs we will have no choice, but to bar you from our site...

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for the summary

[fish43]

It would be quite simple to completely remove the advantage of data mining by replacing the names of opponents at the table and in the hand histories with generic "seat n" labels.

[LVGamb00ler]

This idea would work with one adjustment....they would need to make sure it was clear when a new player was seated. Maybe give the players a version number...Seat 1.1, Seat 1.2

LOL
G'luck all,
LVGamb00ler

[KaBoom]

"If these claims are true and a player at your table were using this program, would it place you at an unfair disadvantage? Consider also that the company that sells this program—the core of which is a massive database of hand histories of as many online players it can get—actually offers its customers the option to conceal their own name on this database, from other users of this program. Is there not a risk that this becomes a process by which players become pressured into buying the programs at least in part, to ensure that their data is not available to other purchasers ? A privileged club who are not at risk of suffering the disadvantage as someone would be who has not bought that program? We think there is this risk and that it is not in the interests of poker players".

- The problem with pokeredge seems to be the option of hiding your own stats. Too bad, it was a nice tool.

Are people still using PE somehow?

[maybedinero]

About [bleep]ing time. I may not agree with their view on PokerEdge, but at least it's now perfectly clear what the rules are, and what's forbidden (PokerEdge & Poker Prophecy) and allowed (Poker Tracker, GT+) by Party Poker.

[sfer]

I like that I basically explained this logic to the Zoo weeks ago and no one believed me.

[Dale]

[ QUOTE ]
I like that I basically explained this logic to the Zoo weeks ago and no one believed me.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's good they wrote out the explanation finally, but the logic has been clear for months to anyone with common sense and a basic knowledge of computers. The question about whether PT and overlay programs were allowed was always a stupid one.

[ChicagoTroy]

PE put it in their own pooper by a) writing their marketing material so it screamed "ban me" and b) trying to conceal their software from Party.

Four people at the same limit mining and sharing hand histories would have a bigger advantage than a player using PE. Party's not going to ban PokerTracker.

[4thstreetpete]

very nice link, thank you.
They do mention that more programs will be added in the future though so stay tuned.

[guppie]

I can personally testify that Party Poker does indeed seize funds from players who do not use illegal software. It happened to me.

I received the same warning as everyone else and immediately uninstalled Poker Edge and deleted any remaining files. I sent them an email advising them that I had done so. I also gave them a list of all software I was still using and requested they advise me if any of it was offensive.

I received no reply and a week later they closed my account and stole over $600 of my money. When I called they said I broke the rules but would not say what I did. I spoke to a supervisor who said they never got my email but if I would send a copy of it she would look into it.

I sent them a copy of the email and proof that it was sent on the date I claimed. That was a week ago and, big surprise, no response.

Party Poker is not telling the truth. They did seize my funds and I was not using any illegal software.

[ QUOTE ]
We do not suspend/cancel/freeze a player account or confiscate any funds in that account, unless that player, having been first notified by us, continues to play on our site using the same offending software.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was not using any illegal software once PE was uninstalled and did not continue to use any illegal software. Nor did I use any software that fit their definition of offending software. I offered to give PP full admin rights to my harddrive so they could delete whatever it was that concerned them without even telling me what they had done. Of course, I got no response.

At the time my account was closed and funds stolen, I was using Poker Tracker. Period.

[maybedinero]

What skin were you using?

[teddyFBI]

I don't believe you.

Party's stance is so completely and totally lame. I still use PE. It's all but undetectable at this point. I've played without it and just used PT with it's GameTime window as well for a month. The difference from that to PE is worth the $10/month to me, but it's a negligible increase compared to the value of just mining at all. To make an analogy, 1 is lowest, 100 the highest. PT alone puts me probably at 95. PE is maybe a 98 or 99. The extra advantage from PE is worth it to me do to the volume of hands I play, but banning PE as "unfair" and not any personal data mining/HUD is just outright silly. The difference from PT->PE for impact on my play against your typical fish is quite small.

Then, Party goes on a tirade about concealing users, as if that pushes it over the edge into unfair. BS. Party would still take the same stance even if PE let players conceal their stats for free. I mean, how many people would really take advantage of that? What, maybe 5%? Those who read these types of forums would be about it. The casual player, the player you make the money off of anyway, either wouldn't know or wouldn't care enough to go hide their stats.

Yea, bunch of people will now post "I'd hide mine", but that just proves the point. You're here reading 2+2, you're already more poker aware than 97% of the players.

Silly, just silly. Already people are, in various forums, talking about PT database swaps. Like trying to stop a tidal wave with a sand castle. Distributed mined information will be available and used.

[guppie]

Party Poker skin.

Don't really care if anyone believes me or not. No skin off my nose. But it is the truth and I have nothing to gain by saying so.

I just wish someone had warned me like I'm warning people now. I would have stopped playing on PP long ago.

[ QUOTE ]
Party's stance is so completely and totally lame. I still use PE. It's all but undetectable at this point. I've played without it and just used PT with it's GameTime window as well for a month. The difference from that to PE is worth the $10/month to me, but it's a negligible increase compared to the value of just mining at all. To make an analogy, 1 is lowest, 100 the highest. PT alone puts me probably at 95. PE is maybe a 98 or 99. The extra advantage from PE is worth it to me do to the volume of hands I play, but banning PE as "unfair" and not any personal data mining/HUD is just outright silly. The difference from PT->PE for impact on my play against your typical fish is quite small.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the actual edge you get from PE is tiny compared to the edge you get simply by having pokertracker, but this is not all that relevant. The problem with PE is a marketing/public relations one. The average player, upon hearing about pokertracker, will not be disturbed by it. However, the average player, the press, and so on, >will< take notice when they find out that thousands of people are compiling a huge database which shows the playstyle and weaknesses of tens of thousands of players.

Imagine if live casino players compiled a similar database, carried around in a large volume the size of a phone book complete with pictures of all the bad players, and as soon as some poor fish sat down at the table, 3 different people opened their books, looked at him, and started snickering and elbowing each other. This is how your typical online player would feel at the idea that all his weaknesses are being tallied up in some database and sent out to thousands of people he has never played with before.

Of course any casino, live or online, will ban this sort of thing. It's not the edge it gives players that's the problem, it's the way it makes the typical player feel.