2/4 Fimbul style

[fuzzbox]

PP 2/4 POT limit (pot is important) 6-max

Hero is SB (400) with A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Villain 1 BB (260)
Villain 2 Button (300)

1 limper, button raises to 10, hero thinks about repopping but decides to call, BB calls

Flop (Pot 30)
Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/club.gif3/images/graemlins/heart.gif
hero checks, BB checks, button bets 10 !!!, hero calls, BB makes it 70 (full pot), button folds, hero makes it 240 (full pot and effectively all-in for villain).

Who likes ?

[RiverFenix]

It looks like he has a set which means you are drawing <10 outs, i dont like.

Actually, 3way he may not have a set. But its a strong Q if not and your A/K may be reverse dominated

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
It looks like he has a set which means you are drawing <10 outs, i dont like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesnt it look like *I* have a set ?

[unlucky513]

don't like it one bit. i think your A and K outs are useless, so you're drawing the the flush only.

you don't view the BB as very strong after he c/r the flop?

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
don't like it one bit. i think your A and K outs are useless, so you're drawing the the flush only.

you don't view the BB as very strong after he c/r the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

After a weak preflop bet, and a button who couldnt even bring himself to bet even half pot on the flop, and a weak-ass call by the small blind ... no, I really dont think that his raise means he is massively strong here ... do you ?
I think he can make this c/r with a big Q (even a medium Q). I think he can often make this raise just looking to take the pot down from the two weak dudes.

However, my RE-raise sure looks big and scary doesnt it ?

[unlucky513]

i agree, and i would likely raise the weak preflop lead, too. i think you're drawing to 12 outs.

but yes, your raise does look scary. i'm putting BB on at least AQ. i'd likely fold AQ in this spot.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It looks like he has a set which means you are drawing <10 outs, i dont like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesnt it look like *I* have a set ?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it looks like you have a big draw. Flat calling a small bet and then reraising a larger one is almost always a draw (usually with overcards or some sort of straight draw to go with the flush). If you had a set, you wouldn't have flat called the $10 when it first came to you as you wouldn't want to let button set his own price to draw.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It looks like he has a set which means you are drawing <10 outs, i dont like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesnt it look like *I* have a set ?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it looks like you have a big draw. Flat calling a small bet and then reraising a larger one is almost always a draw (usually with overcards or some sort of straight draw to go with the flush). If you had a set, you wouldn't have flat called the $10 when it first came to you as you wouldn't want to let button set his own price to draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see this line with a set a whole lot - call a bet but then reraise a raiser.

[Ghazban]

Emulating players that suck is not +EV

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
Emulating players that suck is not +EV

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Emulating their line, without having their hand ...however ...?

[chumsferd]

[ QUOTE ]
After a weak preflop bet, and a button who couldnt even bring himself to bet even half pot on the flop, and a weak-ass call by the small blind ... no, I really dont think that his raise means he is massively strong here ... do you ?
I think he can make this c/r with a big Q (even a medium Q). I think he can often make this raise just looking to take the pot down from the two weak dudes.

However, my RE-raise sure looks big and scary doesnt it ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it does... scary as hell, unless he has trips, then it looks great to him. If your read is correct, then nice hand, well played. I don't see that there is enough information in the OP for me to make this read myself. You give no characterisations of the opponents, and therefore I'm going to assume this is your first hand at the table. If this is my first hand at the table, then it's highly unlikely I'm taking the same line that you did.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After a weak preflop bet, and a button who couldnt even bring himself to bet even half pot on the flop, and a weak-ass call by the small blind ... no, I really dont think that his raise means he is massively strong here ... do you ?
I think he can make this c/r with a big Q (even a medium Q). I think he can often make this raise just looking to take the pot down from the two weak dudes.

However, my RE-raise sure looks big and scary doesnt it ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it does... scary as hell, unless he has trips, then it looks great to him. If your read is correct, then nice hand, well played. I don't see that there is enough information in the OP for me to make this read myself. You give no characterisations of the opponents, and therefore I'm going to assume this is your first hand at the table. If this is my first hand at the table, there it's highly unlikely I'm taking the same line that you did.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, obviously, if he has trips then he has trips and we are all in (but I have outs).

However - I think that the range of hands that he makes a full pot check-raise after that action with, is much larger than a set. I dont see QQ, so that leaves 88/33 as the only real hands to worry about greatly - and most players dont full-pot raise it after plenty of weak action with their set, he might be more inclinded to make it 50 or so with a set, rather than going for a full pot raise.

[Ghazban]

Its not that your line is atrocious and will never make money; I just don't think its optimal. You might get somebody to incorrectly lay down AQ/KQ sometimes (and you don't even need them to do it a huge percentage of the time for it to be +EV).

I would've preferred a lead out on the flop but, barring that, I would've checkraised button's weak bet. Then if BB comes over the top, you can be almost certain you need the flush to win (and probably need to dodge a board pair) and can lay it down (assuming you aren't getting the correct price). If BB checks and there's a bet and a checkraise before it gets back to him, he's forced to define his hand, thereby enabling you to lose the minimum to a set and giving you a much better chance of him folding a good queen.

As it played out, you can't be sure of how strong BB is and, as a result, you have a tough time figuring out how much (if any) folding equity you have.

[fuzzbox]

If I check raise, and BB smooth calls then Im in a world of pain, having a big lump of my stack in the pot oop with a draw (albeit a nice big one).

If I lead out and BB calls, and button pots it, then I have no idea where I am either (will BB call my push? will button lay down ?)

[chumsferd]

[ QUOTE ]
However - I think that the range of hands that he makes a full pot check-raise after that action with, is much larger than a set. I dont see QQ, so that leaves 88/33 as the only real hands to worry about greatly - and most players dont full-pot raise it after plenty of weak action with their set, he might be more inclinded to make it 50 or so with a set, rather than going for a full pot raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is fine, like I say, if this is your read then nice hand, well played.

If I'd just sat down at this table, and had no other knowledge about the opponents, and had to rely on my typical model of a $400 opponent, then I wouldn't take this line. I'd be leading out on the flop, for one thing. If I'd taken your line, then I probably don't make the same read as you after the flop action. This tells me one of two things:

1. Your read is based on information about the opponents that you don't include in the original post. Which is fine, I don't mind your play at all.

2. Your model of a unknown "typical" opponent from the $400 games is different to mine, since I wouldn't be expecting my "typical" opponent to be checking the flop, initially, with a big queen on a draw heavy board.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
If I check raise, and BB smooth calls then Im in a world of pain, having a big lump of my stack in the pot oop with a draw (albeit a nice big one).

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You aren't in any pain at all. BB has effectively turned his cards over and shown you a set (or two pair at worst). You push the turn hard if you make your flush and check/fold to a big bet if you miss (costing you a lot less than your original line vs. a set). He probably won't lay down his set even if you make your flush so at least you can get most of the money in when you're ahead. The benefit over this line over your original line is that you get to see the turn and you don't invest nearly as much before finding out where you're at.

Did he call instantly?

I'm not a big fan but I don't think this is that horrible...might have been easier to play if you reraised PF. AKs is a pretty big hand not to reraise PF (especially 6 max)...you may have gotten some helpful information...

[xcrack999]

I like it. There's no way that we can put BB squarely on a set. He's checkraising a super-weak continuation bet by a preflop raiser. He can do that with a lot hands. Even hands like JJ, TT, 99, TJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif, and T9/images/graemlins/heart.gif are very possible. Even if we put him only on AA, KK, AQ, KQ, QQ, 88, or 33, we still have about 40% pot equity. Not a bad push at all.

The alternate is to call or fold. But calling puts you to a horrible decision on the turn if your draw doesn't hit, and folding is just yuck!

[gol4pro]

I like the initial line a whole lot... and I like this line a whole lot as well.

Although it doesn't appear that the button is just stabbing, it's quite possible that he is, and may even give you a free river by just calling the flop. In addition, he may bet weakly, and give you a turn to check raise the pot and steal it from him (although you probably shouldn't use this method very often-- only when you're very certain he'll fold).

Then, the BB raises it big time out of the middle of nowhere. What turned into you wanting to see a big draw on a cheap turn just became a great semi-bluff opportunity.

If you can establish that he doesn't have a set a lot of the time here, then I like this line a whole lot.

[fuzzbox]

Villain thought for ages and finally folded.

One up for the good guys.