2/4 Straight vs check-min raise on river w/ flush board

[ryanghall]

Empire 400NL 8-handed. Villain (25/7/3 in 30 hands) has $134, I have him covered.

I get A /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif UTG+1

1 limp, I limp. Folds to Villain in SB who completes. BB checks.

Flop is J /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Checks around.

Turn is Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Checked to me. I bet $15. Villain calls.

River is 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Villain checks, I bet $25. He min-raises to $50. I fold.

Who check-min. raises here without the flush? I don't think very many players. So I like the fold. Agree?

[NYCNative]

With the smoothcall on the turn after the three-flush, I check down the river. If you're not prepared to call a check-minraise - let alone a massive check-raise - you should always check it down.

As you played it, I have trouble calling too but I probably do because I suck at poker.

[ryanghall]

Do you really not like the river value bet? With this board, there are a ton of non-flush hands that could be calling here. Furthermore, after he checks the river, it really doesn't seem like a flush does it?

[NYCNative]

You bet the turn, so maybe villain was sure you would bet the river as well. Maybe villain was convinced you got to the flush so you would bet the river but he had the nut flush. Or maybe villain thought "I bet i can buy this pot even though I *missed* my four-flush."

Either way, you need to think ahead before you make that river bet on how you will handle a raise. If you will handle it by folding, the only person getting value out of your bet was villain.

[fuzzbox]

Yup, thats about the size of it.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
You bet the turn, so maybe villain was sure you would bet the river as well. Maybe villain was convinced you got to the flush so you would bet the river but he had the nut flush. Or maybe villain thought "I bet i can buy this pot even though I *missed* my four-flush."

Either way, you need to think ahead before you make that river bet on how you will handle a raise. If you will handle it by folding, the only person getting value out of your bet was villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats not true - if villain will call with KQ, KJ, 44, JJ, JQ and so on then its perfectly fine to value bet the river here. If you get raised, then you are beat and so you lay down. Not betting lets all those hands off cheap.

Of course if villain will never call with those hands, then you check behind.

[NYCNative]

Villain could raise with a lessr or equal hand as well. Then why not call the raise? As for "letting those hands off cheap," it's far better to win a small(er) pot than lose a big(ger) one in my book. Villain could also be check-calling a baby flush here so you will lose that extra $25 at showdown anyway. In fact, if I had a baby flush here, that's not a bad line, and hero walks into it by betting the river.

[fuzzbox]

Most villains dont check the river with a made flush, so he has been quite tricky by doing so. This would often get me to value bet my straight. I would never value bet a pair/two-pair hand here, so villain can only catch me if I have a str8.

There are so many hands that might well pay me off here, and with his tricky river check, I think a value bet is good against those hands.

I think that villains who check-minraise the river are bluffing in the region of 0%, so I can lay it down here.

I think the value bet is ok here, and while winning a smaller pot is better than losing a bigger one, winning a bigger pot is better than losing a smaller one /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Checking behind isnt the worst thing here but I think you can get paid here more often than check-raised.

[ryanghall]

Cause seriously how often do people bluff check-min raise on the river?

Read fimbul's post in MHNL. It saved me $25 /images/graemlins/smile.gif