Dealing with the Min-raise

[Salerosa]

Scenario: You are button with QQ and make it 5xBB (one limper ahead). Small blind calls as does limper.

Flop comes 10 7 2 rainbow. Checked to you and you pot it, SB min-raises, limper folds. What do you do?

I realize player reads play a large part in your decision, but I really think that just folding would be +EV for me in these situations as the min-raise is indicative a big hand (usu set in my exp).

Now, do you

A)re-raise and fold (or call) to a push

B)call and evaluate turn action

C)fold like a biatch

The reason this situation bothers me is that none of those options seem very appealing to me is that with an unknown opponent, who is worth 2 cents, if I reraise at best he folds and I take down the pot. More often than not however, I face a re-raise, or a call and then a big bet on the turn.

Calling down seems like not too horrible of an option, but I feel like this is too weak and leads to me pissing money away becoming a calling station.

Folding just seems bad for table image as it either takes away the legitimacy of my continuation bets or lets people start to take shots at me and put me in difficult situations.

Any thoughts on how you handle the situation and what seems to work best?

[NYCNative]

What level is this? At a lower level it could be a set (a lot of people play sets this way on non-threatening boards for whatever reason) or it could be AT. Villain could also have Jacks he thinks are good or he slowplayed KK or AA.

I don't just call the raise because there's nothing that can come that will make me feel better about my hand than another ten and that's not likely, and there's a whole lot that can come that will make me feel a lot worse, like an overcard.

Without a read, I push and pay off the set, AA or KK, because I believe that enough of the time, I will be against a smaller PP or TPTK. You don't mention stack sizes but FE is also a consideration.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
What level is this? At a lower level it could be a set (a lot of people play sets this way on non-threatening boards for whatever reason) or it could be AT. Villain could also have Jacks he thinks are good or he slowplayed KK or AA.

I don't just call the raise because there's nothing that can come that will make me feel better about my hand than another ten and that's not likely, and there's a whole lot that can come that will make me feel a lot worse, like an overcard.

Without a read, I push and pay off the set, AA or KK, because I believe that enough of the time, I will be against a smaller PP or TPTK. You don't mention stack sizes but FE is also a consideration.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you often get called by a smaller pp when you push here ?

[NYCNative]

Oh God yes.

[jtr]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh God yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not counting pocket tens, sevens, and twos?

You need more information, so I re-raise the min and see how he plays. If he has half a brain and he is holding TPTK, he will begin to play more passive (checking/calling). If he raises again after seeing your strong play and your big raise preflop, then he hit a set and puts you on the overpair, and you can fold. I dont see any point in pushing, if your beat, he calls and you lose everything, and if hes behind, he'll fold and you make no more money. Position is a big factor in how you play this hand, because he has the pressure of acting first on the turn.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
You need more information, so I re-raise the min and see how he plays. If he has half a brain and he is holding TPTK, he will begin to play more passive (checking/calling). If he raises again after seeing your strong play and your big raise preflop, then he hit a set and puts you on the overpair, and you can fold. I dont see any point in pushing, if your beat, he calls and you lose everything, and if hes behind, he'll fold and you make no more money. Position is a big factor in how you play this hand, because he has the pressure of acting first on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is reraising different than pushing ? If you are ahead then he folds, and if you are behind then he can call and check/raise all-in on the turn, or he can push now and you fold ...... ?

Yuck.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You need more information, so I re-raise the min and see how he plays. If he has half a brain and he is holding TPTK, he will begin to play more passive (checking/calling). If he raises again after seeing your strong play and your big raise preflop, then he hit a set and puts you on the overpair, and you can fold. I dont see any point in pushing, if your beat, he calls and you lose everything, and if hes behind, he'll fold and you make no more money. Position is a big factor in how you play this hand, because he has the pressure of acting first on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is reraising different than pushing ? If you are ahead then he folds, and if you are behind then he can call and check/raise all-in on the turn, or he can push now and you fold ...... ?

Yuck.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this not a better option then going all in?, AT would definately call a min reraise and fold to a big bet on the turn, if youre going to go all in on the flop, you get the same result as you would with this play when you lose, and if youre ahead, you get more. This way you give your opponent a chance to mess up by calling your bet with a weaker hand, or by pushing and showing his strength. And you dont lose everything in your stack unless he plays it perfect.

[Salerosa]

This is 100 and 200 NL specifically I am referring to, and assuming 100BB+ stacks.

I hate the idea of pushing, as unless he is a complete donk he isn't calling with anything that doesn't beat me. MAYBE A 10, other than that, what, JJ? Also this not a situation where where I "pay off a set," as if I make a habit of paying off sets with overpairs, it becomes +EV for opponents to try and spike sets on me (maybe).

BTW if he were a small stack and not terrible he would not cold-call me and try to spike a set with a small/mid PP as he doesn't have any chips behind him (no odds). And if he were short stacked this is an easy push IMO.

[JihadOnTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
You need more information, so I re-raise the min and see how he plays

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that this is the worst possible suggestion. At this level, I agree with the poster that says All-in or fold. I think with no reads, I'm going to pay off a set/stack AT every time here.

-Jihad

[djoyce003]

I reraise here...in my experience the flop checkraise is top pair way more often than it is a set or two pair. They usually wait for the turn. I'll reraise big and if he stacks me I make a note of it by his name that he fast plays sets and two pair hands rather than waiting, and it never happens to me with him again. I would say given the money that is in the pot you have to be ahead slightly less than half the time to push here, and I think you are ahead slightly more than half the time. Also if he has some ridiculous two pair hand, you have outs...and even if he has a set you have 2 outs...so that mitigates the risk somewhat on the times that you are behind, which again, I think is less than half the time.

Youre insane, how can you fold to a min raise OR go all in, both bad plays, they dont make sense. The min raise could be a tester bet for all you know...I like the re-raise/call. Now that i think about it, a call is not a bad play either, as you will get more information on how confident he is on the turn because you are on the button. Just dont shoot me down without giving any good reason for your play. I dont make money playing poker by paying off sets...Besides, why are you paying the set off just because you have no reads anyway? If you want to explain to me why all in would be a good play...i would like to hear it. I could use a good laugh. YOU WILL ONLY GET CALLED BY STRONGER HANDS. The only way all in is good is if you have him on loose/aggressive. Even then...i dont like it

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
I reraise here...in my experience the flop checkraise is top pair way more often than it is a set or two pair. They usually wait for the turn. I'll reraise big and if he stacks me I make a note of it by his name that he fast plays sets and two pair hands rather than waiting, and it never happens to me with him again. I would say given the money that is in the pot you have to be ahead slightly less than half the time to push here, and I think you are ahead slightly more than half the time. Also if he has some ridiculous two pair hand, you have outs...and even if he has a set you have 2 outs...so that mitigates the risk somewhat on the times that you are behind, which again, I think is less than half the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

The very large problem with this is -

if (probably IF), you are right and you are ahead 50% of the time, then when you 3bet you only get called the precise 50% of the time when you are behind. Thus, reraising has the effect of stacking you, or taking down the pot right now. Thus, you lose the max when you are beat, and win the min when you are ahead.

If, you call, then our villain can continue to bet the other 50% of hands that he believes are best, and you gain because he continues to effectively bluff off more money.

So you lose less when you are behind (unless you end up stacking off anyway), and you win more when you are ahead (because he can continue to bluff).

[djoyce003]

not entirely true. If he reraises me after I raise, then i'm folding. If he calls and leads the turn, then I consider folding. If he checks the turn, I lead. If he calls that I probably make a small value bet on the river, but nothing too crazy. They aren't folding top pair to a reraise on this flop, most aren't anyway. A good player will but then a good player will also slow down on the turn after you call.

I'm not automatically stacking off here. I don't like chumps checkraising my continuation bets, especially when I have a hand...that is the whole point in making the continuation bets when you don't have anything, they are thinking, he can't have something everytime. He probably thinks you are on missed overs and his hand is good, which it isn't...punish him now because 1) you are likely ahead and 2) metagame purposes.

[yvesaint]

Alright, let me work this out. I'm assuming you both have 100BB stacks.

You raise 5BB, SB + limper calls. 16BB pot. You bet 16BB, and are re-raised to 32BB. Pot is now 64BB, and you have 79BB left. 16BB to call will leave you with 53BB and a 80BB pot, giving you no room to maneuver on the turn/river.

Do you re-raise on the flop? How much? I don't see any amount that you could re-raise without going all-in. Let's say you re-raise the minimum, leaving you with 47BB and pot at 96BB. Then, he pushes in his last 47BB giving you 47BB to call a pot of 141BB, giving you almost 3:1 odds to call ...

Am I doing this wrong?

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I reraise here...in my experience the flop checkraise is top pair way more often than it is a set or two pair. They usually wait for the turn. I'll reraise big and if he stacks me I make a note of it by his name that he fast plays sets and two pair hands rather than waiting, and it never happens to me with him again. I would say given the money that is in the pot you have to be ahead slightly less than half the time to push here, and I think you are ahead slightly more than half the time. Also if he has some ridiculous two pair hand, you have outs...and even if he has a set you have 2 outs...so that mitigates the risk somewhat on the times that you are behind, which again, I think is less than half the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

The very large problem with this is -

if (probably IF), you are right and you are ahead 50% of the time, then when you 3bet you only get called the precise 50% of the time when you are behind. Thus, reraising has the effect of stacking you, or taking down the pot right now. Thus, you lose the max when you are beat, and win the min when you are ahead.

If, you call, then our villain can continue to bet the other 50% of hands that he believes are best, and you gain because he continues to effectively bluff off more money.

So you lose less when you are behind (unless you end up stacking off anyway), and you win more when you are ahead (because he can continue to bluff).

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your thinking here. Please continue. After calling, what do you do if:

a) Villain checks the turn?
b) Villain makes a smallish to moderate bet on the turn?
c) Villain makes a very large bet on the turn?

-Phoenix

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I reraise here...in my experience the flop checkraise is top pair way more often than it is a set or two pair. They usually wait for the turn. I'll reraise big and if he stacks me I make a note of it by his name that he fast plays sets and two pair hands rather than waiting, and it never happens to me with him again. I would say given the money that is in the pot you have to be ahead slightly less than half the time to push here, and I think you are ahead slightly more than half the time. Also if he has some ridiculous two pair hand, you have outs...and even if he has a set you have 2 outs...so that mitigates the risk somewhat on the times that you are behind, which again, I think is less than half the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

The very large problem with this is -

if (probably IF), you are right and you are ahead 50% of the time, then when you 3bet you only get called the precise 50% of the time when you are behind. Thus, reraising has the effect of stacking you, or taking down the pot right now. Thus, you lose the max when you are beat, and win the min when you are ahead.

If, you call, then our villain can continue to bet the other 50% of hands that he believes are best, and you gain because he continues to effectively bluff off more money.

So you lose less when you are behind (unless you end up stacking off anyway), and you win more when you are ahead (because he can continue to bluff).

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your thinking here. Please continue. After calling, what do you do if:

a) Villain checks the turn?
b) Villain makes a smallish to moderate bet on the turn?
c) Villain makes a very large bet on the turn?

-Phoenix

[/ QUOTE ]

If he checks, I check, and call a river bet or value bet a river check

If he bets big, then I can sleep easy and lay down
If he bets small, then I might see a river, and make a decision there.

[ QUOTE ]
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I reraise here...in my experience the flop checkraise is top pair way more often than it is a set or two pair. They usually wait for the turn. I'll reraise big and if he stacks me I make a note of it by his name that he fast plays sets and two pair hands rather than waiting, and it never happens to me with him again. I would say given the money that is in the pot you have to be ahead slightly less than half the time to push here, and I think you are ahead slightly more than half the time. Also if he has some ridiculous two pair hand, you have outs...and even if he has a set you have 2 outs...so that mitigates the risk somewhat on the times that you are behind, which again, I think is less than half the time.


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The very large problem with this is -

if (probably IF), you are right and you are ahead 50% of the time, then when you 3bet you only get called the precise 50% of the time when you are behind. Thus, reraising has the effect of stacking you, or taking down the pot right now. Thus, you lose the max when you are beat, and win the min when you are ahead.

If, you call, then our villain can continue to bet the other 50% of hands that he believes are best, and you gain because he continues to effectively bluff off more money.

So you lose less when you are behind (unless you end up stacking off anyway), and you win more when you are ahead (because he can continue to bluff).


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I like your thinking here. Please continue. After calling, what do you do if:

a) Villain checks the turn?
b) Villain makes a smallish to moderate bet on the turn?
c) Villain makes a very large bet on the turn?

-Phoenix


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If he checks, I check, and call a river bet or value bet a river check

If he bets big, then I can sleep easy and lay down
If he bets small, then I might see a river, and make a decision there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with fuzz. I like this line a lot, I think it balances both pot control with maximizing winnings when ahead/minizing losses when behind.

[gunslingner]

I think the best action is folding.

And its great for table image. Next you raise smth like 67suited, and bet the pot again. No matterwhat the board is.
Same with AK. U missed, u hit, u bet the flop and fold to a check-raise.

Pepople will fear u.

[DWarrior]

What? You'll bet the pot again with missed 67, they'll raise you again, and you'll fold.

[gunslingner]

They WONT raise you again.

Not in small stakes

[Brad F.]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the best action is folding.

And its great for table image. Next you raise smth like 67suited, and bet the pot again. No matterwhat the board is.
Same with AK. U missed, u hit, u bet the flop and fold to a check-raise.

Pepople will laugh in your face .

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

Brad

[jonnyUCB]

a check min-raise from a passive player is usually a monster. Unless you know this player is INCAPABLE of leading into a pfr (making the check/raise his only arsenal playing OOP), I would rarely 3-bet the flop as it rarely means one pair.

I can't believe so many players are advocating a reraise... so we're putting 40-50 BBs and then folding to a reraise?

In position I'm calling this.

I think passivity in the face of a minraise is the right way to play. I played this hand yesterday, and it is pretty typical of when I see minraises:

I am LP with A /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif and about $50. Villain is UTG or UTG+1 with maybe $2 or $3 less than I have. Villain raises to $2, folds around to me, I call, everyone else folds out. HU with ~$4 in the pot.

Flop: A /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Villain checks. I bet $4. Villain minraises to $8. Now, at this point, I completely misread the minraise, thinking villain had a big ace (primarily because of his ep raise). In any event, I thought I had him and raised to $24, an amount that basically pot committed him. He pushed, and, well, I had basically pot committed myself, too, but I belatedly figured out that there was a chance he had 88 in his hand, and I called his push anyway, because there was a chance he only had a big ace.

I spiked a jack on the river and sucked out on the trip 8s he showed down. I have thought a lot about that hand, and the thing that strikes me the most about it is how absolutely typical it is of minraises.

You see people making these minraises all the time, and, usually, they do have a big hand. The problem is simply reading the player. Is he a good player building the pot with trips or is he a donk who minraises because he thinks he has you and is too lazy/stupid/new-at-the-game to type a number? But I think you have to put either type of player on a serious hand. This is especially true for the insta-min-raise, which, to me, represents aggression run amok. It is sheer posturing, waiting for you to bet with his hand hovering over the raise button so the minute you do he can--wham--slap you down with a raise. That sort of aggression means power, at least in the eyes of the villain. It is a raise from someone who equates delay with weakness and wants to feel strong by acting instantly, imo.

Which doesn't mean you insta-fold. Folding to a minraise has problems, too, mainly with table image, but also with unnecessarily losing money (like in my case, half the time or so (???) I will win that pot against AQ or AK). So I don't think simply folding can be the right play as a general rule. In the absence of a read (and I think minraise situations are more read dependent than average) I think you simply have to start thinking about slowing down.

So in my hand, after the flop, I bet $4, he minraises to $8, and I call. Now there is $20 in the pot and we each have about $40 in chips. The turn was a blank. What does villain do? Well, if he thinks his set is still good, and he would, he makes a reasonable bet, one that I have to call, say, $15. If I am slowing down, I just call. Now there is $50 in the pot and we each have about $25 left.

If he makes a mistake here and pushes, then it is much easier to put him on a set and I can fold, having only lost $10 on the hand.

If he makes a bigger mistake here and checks (he can't rule out me having AA or JJ, after all, despite the fact that they are unlikely because I didn't reraise him pre or postflop), then I get to see my river for free.

The river comes a jack, and I have filled up. He probably checks the river and I bet and he probably makes a crying call.

If nothing comes on the river that helps me, I still have the option of walking away from my hand with half my stack (or more, if he checked the turn) when he inevitably pushes to a harmless river.

The point is, slowing down gives your opponent the opportunity to make mistakes or telegraph his hand. But you still have the opportunity to stack your guy if you decide you have him, after all. And even if you don't stack him, you win a big pot.

Your best defense against a minraise may turn out to be your position, or, rather, the information it gets you. You slow down, you get more information. Is it really that simple? I don't know, but I am about t put my money where my mouth is and start playing this way as a rule. We'll see how it goes.

[4_2_it]

This is similar to a hand a I played last night at 100NL with QQ. I made the usual 4x BB raise and had two callers.

Flop is ragged 10 8 2. I bet the pot. Next position raises which is quickly followed by an all-in for approximately triple the pot. I think for 30 seconds and fold figuring a set or slow-played AA or KK.

Well, the first re-rasier calls and shows JJ while the all-in caller turned over A-10 for TPTK. I just had to laugh.

So here I think it is not faulty thinking to believe you are ahead. You can't give too much credit to someone flopping a set. If he put you on AK or AQ then he is pushing with any pair. The min raise might be a hint to a set or it might be an inexperienced player hitting the raise button with his TPTK. Don't go looking for monsters under the bed.

If you aren't going to play QQ agressively to the bitter end with that flop, then just fold pre-flop because other than a flop containing a Q I can't think of a better scenario to get your chips in the middle, especially after assesing the pre-flop action.

Short of having a read on your as a TAG or Rock there is no way you should consider folding. If your opponent suffers from Fancy Play Syndrome then you will get your chips back if he turns over AA or KK.

In position, I will call pre-flop 4BB and under raises (from anyone but TAGs or Rocks) at the NL 100 level with any PP and see what flops. Most players will make the continuation bet with AK or AQ at which point I can re-raise. Of course, a flop with a picture card or an oversized bet will get me to fold 55 pretty quick, but a trash flop and a limp bet will often be met with a raise.

[gulebjorn]

[ QUOTE ]
Scenario: You are button with QQ and make it 5xBB (one limper ahead). Small blind calls as does limper.

Flop comes 10 7 2 rainbow. Checked to you and you pot it, SB min-raises, limper folds. What do you do?

I realize player reads play a large part in your decision, but I really think that just folding would be +EV for me in these situations as the min-raise is indicative a big hand (usu set in my exp).

Now, do you

A)re-raise and fold (or call) to a push

B)call and evaluate turn action

C)fold like a biatch

The reason this situation bothers me is that none of those options seem very appealing to me is that with an unknown opponent, who is worth 2 cents, if I reraise at best he folds and I take down the pot. More often than not however, I face a re-raise, or a call and then a big bet on the turn.

Calling down seems like not too horrible of an option, but I feel like this is too weak and leads to me pissing money away becoming a calling station.

Folding just seems bad for table image as it either takes away the legitimacy of my continuation bets or lets people start to take shots at me and put me in difficult situations.

Any thoughts on how you handle the situation and what seems to work best?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a clear cut case of way ahead/way behind.

10 7 2 rainbow is not a draw-heavy board. The best draw you could possibly be up against is 89s with a backdoor flush. So he's drawing to 9 outs or so. But this won't be happening too often. 4xBB is a lot to call in a 3-way pot with a suited connector, plus it's only one hand we're talking about.

Someone could be drawing to AK, so he has 6 outs. This looks like a possibility.

He could have a smaller pair than you, which means he's drawing to 3 outs or even 2 if it's a PP.

These are the hands you are ahead of.

You are behind to: 2 pair (would be strange on this board), a set (exactly what this looks like) or a bigger PP.

We can safely rule out the two pair. This would also be a weird way of playing kings or aces. If anything, they'd probably limp/re-raise with those. But limp-calling... I don't think so.

So... the set. Limping in with a small PP, flat calling the raise, minraising the flop... It sure looks like a set.

Oh yeah, I saw someone say that donks play their sets like this. I actually like the minraise on the flop with a set. If you consider that there is 17BB in the pot PF + PSB of 17 BB = 34 BB. So after the minraise it's 17 to call for a 51xBB pot. This is hard to fold to. Most opponents call or re-raise this. It means that there is a 68xBB pot on the turn, and both have 61xBB left. If they call, this is a great situation to stick 30 in on the turn and 30 on the river. If they re-raise, you can push right there. Anyone like/dislike? (as a side note)

So... I like flat calling this flop. AK probably wouldn't minraise here, 98, T7 and such seem like longshots. I think you are way ahead here (AT, JJ, AK, maybe even JT or 99) or way behind (TT, 77, 22, maybe AA or KK)

So I'd try to get to showdown as cheap as possible. It doesn't really matter if scare cards come, you just want to show down your hand. If he tries to get half your stack in on the turn, I'd let go. Same on the river. Your PSB/call looks strong enough to scare any hand that you are ahead of enough to discourage action IMO.

Sigh, what ramblings... In short: What fuzzbox said.

[jonnyUCB]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually like the minraise on the flop with a set. Anyone like/dislike? (as a side note)

[/ QUOTE ]

The move is way too mechanical/obvious on a drawless board and setting you up to get outdrawn on a draw-heavy board. Yes, it does work sometimes against people who grow too attached.. but so does raising a lot. Basically, unless you're betting in the same fashion with all your hands, its not hard for people to see through the min-raise. I'd rather bet pot with all my hands /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[gulebjorn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I actually like the minraise on the flop with a set. Anyone like/dislike? (as a side note)

[/ QUOTE ]

The move is way too mechanical/obvious on a drawless board and setting you up to get outdrawn on a draw-heavy board. Yes, it does work sometimes against people who grow too attached.. but so does raising a lot. Basically, unless you're betting in the same fashion with all your hands, its not hard for people to see through the min-raise. I'd rather bet pot with all my hands /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're probably right. I play lower limits, where this works just fine.

Edit: I would only try this on a drawless board of course.

[Salerosa]

I like alot of the opinions and ideas here. My standard way of playing is to call, and unless I spike a queen to get a cheap showdown, value bet the river if he checks the turn and the river. One of my main problems is barring a read, I tend to give players more credit than they deserve, and as a result I tend to play weaker than I should with position when I smell something fishy (no pun intended). I'm not sure if this saves me money, or costs me money, as even though I've logged in 20k+ hands online I still feel like a major newbie to online play, and haven't experienced this play enough to have a good feel for it /images/graemlins/frown.gif