LAG and Shorthanded PLO - Answer the PP Challenge

[fimbulwinter]

Tonight i'm sitting there playing NLHE 5 handed with two of my favorite bad LAG players. they're both running bad (i have about 4K from one alone) and then one pipes in and says "yeah, im running bad in HE, but omaha is way easier."

He tells me to look at the PLO table; lo and behond he's playing 5/10 SH PLO against two known good players from the 5/10 HE game, and brutalizing them. he has 11K on table. he's raising every button, 1/2 the bB's and taking almost every pot down uncontested. nobody is threebettting him.

Every once in a while a 400ish pot goes to showdown and the HE players win. then a 2K pot goes down and the LAG wins with a backdoored straight, flush etc.


I remember that PP was aksed how to deal with such a player and MM also commented that if conditions were right, a player in a SH PLO game could make money simply by betting and raising.

What is the proper defense here?

fim

[barongreenback]

Position is more important in PLO than in any other game so the button has a right to play hard preflop. I'm not sure that 3 betting is the correct defence. See the flop if hand is playable and play. It's not like his hand range is unknown. The problems start if you take the 'wait for a hand' attitude. This applies at HE but more at omaha because he'll usually have outs.

James

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
Position is more important in PLO than in any other game so the button has a right to play hard preflop. I'm not sure that 3 betting is the correct defence. See the flop if hand is playable and play. It's not like his hand range is unknown. The problems start if you take the 'wait for a hand' attitude. This applies at HE but more at omaha because he'll usually have outs.

James

[/ QUOTE ]

now i feel like a total fish, i didnt understand any of that. back to HE for me.

fim

[barongreenback]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Position is more important in PLO than in any other game so the button has a right to play hard preflop. I'm not sure that 3 betting is the correct defence. See the flop if hand is playable and play. It's not like his hand range is unknown. The problems start if you take the 'wait for a hand' attitude. This applies at HE but more at omaha because he'll usually have outs.

James

[/ QUOTE ]

now i feel like a total fish, i didnt understand any of that. back to HE for me.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok it was a haphazard answer but your question was very generalized. It's likely that you're dismissing me but I'm happy discuss specifics if you want.

Whether to defend vs steal with preflop or postflop aggression at HE is a question I'd love to know more about. At omaha I'd favour postflop because preflop my hand based edge less often overcomes my positional disavantage.

James

[ipp147]

Hi Fim,

A couple of things. It is alot easier to dominate someone preflop in holdem and dependent on the match-up the button is less likely to catch up.

In omaha the problem I see is two fold.

1) You will not dominate the button by great margins preflop that often and due to the PL nature cannot punish him preflop significantly when the stacks are deepish

2) Omaha is alot harder to play OOP as so many cards will be scare cards and players can back into all sorts of hands much more frequently than in HE and on the streets that matter.

I don't play alot of SH PLO but I would say that the best defense would be to play the same when you are the button.

When he is the button I would be calling alot more preflop and checkraising with a fair amount of made hands and draws.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Position is more important in PLO than in any other game so the button has a right to play hard preflop. I'm not sure that 3 betting is the correct defence. See the flop if hand is playable and play. It's not like his hand range is unknown. The problems start if you take the 'wait for a hand' attitude. This applies at HE but more at omaha because he'll usually have outs.

James

[/ QUOTE ]

now i feel like a total fish, i didnt understand any of that. back to HE for me.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok it was a haphazard answer but your question was very generalized. It's likely that you're dismissing me but I'm happy discuss specifics if you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you don't really feel that way. I'm honestly interested in your input. from having read it, i can tell that you understand what you're saying, but i obviously do not (that game was my second time ever playing omaha).

[ QUOTE ]
Whether to defend vs steal with preflop or postflop aggression at HE is a question I'd love to know more about. At omaha I'd favour postflop because preflop my hand based edge less often overcomes my positional disavantage.

James

[/ QUOTE ]

great point. i think my preflop aggression held over from HE was killing me in this game. doing a little twodimesing, preflop overlays are virtually non existant in omaha. weird.

I think the solution you posited (postflop restealing) is much better than 3betting, esp OOP, pf.

fim

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Fim,

A couple of things. It is alot easier to dominate someone preflop in holdem and dependent on the match-up the button is less likely to catch up.

In omaha the problem I see is two fold.

1) You will not dominate the button by great margins preflop that often and due to the PL nature cannot punish him preflop significantly when the stacks are deepish

2) Omaha is alot harder to play OOP as so many cards will be scare cards and players can back into all sorts of hands much more frequently than in HE and on the streets that matter.

I don't play alot of SH PLO but I would say that the best defense would be to play the same when you are the button.

When he is the button I would be calling alot more preflop and checkraising with a fair amount of made hands and draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

good points.

fim

[barongreenback]

I'm pretty new to omaha myself so I'm probably not very clear. I hope someone will correct me if I give bad info. A couple more thoughts:

1. The initiative that comes from a PFR is not the same as HE because even the strongest hands depend on hitting the flop if there is much money left. I'm not experienced enough to be sure but there may be an opposite effect ie caller thinks "He's raised so he has AAxx, I can call the flop and take him off his hand/bust him with 2 pair/get free cards" (depending on read of PFR). This attitude could cause problems when he has hit his sidecards or has raised with other cards so I'm not saying it's right.

2. There is an interesting question in poker generally about raising and reraising preflop OOP. Your position is a disadvantage so you don't want to play for more money but bloating the pot gets you closer to pot committed which lessens your positional disadvantage (I think) because it reduces your opponents implied odds. Doesn't apply if money is really deep. I can't fully get my head round this and this isn't the right forum anyway.

James