River Checkraises - Fixing a Leak?

[fimbulwinter]

today i had the nut full house and was river checkraised all-in by someone with quads.

i know the call was right, but it got me thinking. i can remember exactly once where i have been river checkraise bluffed. that time was playing drunk 100NL live with a 10/20 pro and friend. when i get river checraised, i'd still say im calling it, if it's a minraise, maybe 50% of the time. this is obviously a leak.

i notice that almost everyone calls these bets which have a very very high likelyhood of being the effective nuts. even good players that i respect seem to call these things. obviously long term calling loses money here, so is there an alterior motive to call here? do you do this because you don't want to be bluffed like this in the future?

my current game has very little checkraising. i don't think i really ever try to river checkraise either as a bluff or value bet.

can some of the more experienced guys out there post hands where they use the river checkraise as a bluff or value bet? In general i see it used by bad players as a sort of forced manifestation of having played badly throughout the hand (slowplaying a set that becomes quads etc.) and I'd like to see where good player would use it, if at all.

from what i understand now, people like to use it whe they stumble into improbable hands (backdoor flushes and FH's). Is that the general concensus?

fim

[thabadguy]

Interesting that you ask this question, I have a similar problem. I very very rarely CR the river. I lead overbet in a situation where others would CR. I think it is possibly because I am scared they will check behind , and i will either lose value or lose the pot because I am bluffing.
My stand on it is that, river checkraises from strong players are more likely nuts than a bluff(especially when you have been showing strength all along).
I like lead overbetting river as it accomplishes the same as a CR, like in hidden monsters(backdoor flush/straight..etc.) and with bluffs.
I have often laid down to river CR's but i think that when a good player has been showing strength all along, and then checks the river, i get suspicious and check behind, unless i have a real monster.
In your hand , checking behind with the nut fullhouse woulda been awful. Obv you know you're going to the felt with that against quads.

[TheWorstPlayer]

a nice example (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=plnlpoker&Number=1735095)

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
a nice example (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=plnlpoker&Number=1735095)

[/ QUOTE ]

um, i think that's a terrible place for it. what player good enough to fold to the C/R also bets that river when every draw hits?

fim

[captZEEbo1]

Yeah the best spot for it is a backdoor flush (where you called a flop bet too, it can't be checked around on flop). It also has to be against the right opponents, who will still bet one pair on the river.

[AZK]

I experienced this 2 weeks ago, probably only then due to my excessive play this month. I realized, I pay off the river cr wayyy to much. Especially at 5/10 and lower, people do not check-raise bluff the river. They just don't do it. In the higher stakes games it's probably more common. So I took two things from this:

1) Stop paying off [censored] river check-raises from abc players. (Although I call in your hand)
2) Start river cr bluffing.

1 is still difficult, 2 is going pretty well, just need to pick your spots, and I probably only do it once a session against the right guy.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a nice example (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=plnlpoker&Number=1735095)

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um, i think that's a terrible place for it. what player good enough to fold to the C/R also bets that river when every draw hits?

fim

[/ QUOTE ]
An aggressive value better? And you don't have to be particularly good to lay down when you get check/raised after the flush hits. That's a pretty easy fold, if you're going to make the bet. Perhaps the bet isn't good, but that would be a pretty hard call to make, IMO, without a read. (Although it appears from later posts in the thread that the villain actually had a read that OP might pull something like that and therefore should, indeed, have checked behind on the river. Still, I think it's a nice plan to either value bet the straight or check/raise the 'flush'.)

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
I experienced this 2 weeks ago, probably only then due to my excessive play this month. I realized, I pay off the river cr wayyy to much. Especially at 5/10 and lower, people do not check-raise bluff the river. They just don't do it. In the higher stakes games it's probably more common. So I took two things from this:

1) Stop paying off [censored] river check-raises from abc players. (Although I call in your hand)
2) Start river cr bluffing.

1 is still difficult, 2 is going pretty well, just need to pick your spots, and I probably only do it once a session against the right guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fimbul just said...and nobody has disagreed...that even very good players call river check raises. Its hard not too even though most times you know your beat because nobody check raises the river as a bluff. If this is the case, and I think it is, then how CAN you check raise bluff the river? Ever good players are going to call alot of your bluffs. Its going to have to be a HUGE bluff.

Thank you... I just did a quick review of my pt database and your dead on I pay these off way too much.

NewbieStyle

[creedofhubris]

Checkraising the turn with a big draw is something I'm interested in incorporating more of into my game.

Checkraising river is good when you back into one draw and were trying for something else, whether your flush missed and you ended up with straight/boat, or your straight missed and you hit the flush.

Checkraise bluff the river... you really need the right guy, because so many of those checkraises get paid off.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
Checkraising the turn with a big draw is something I'm interested in incorporating more of into my game.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's funny that the regular 5/10 playrs are so trained to fold to turn c/r's without top set that the vast majority of my turn c/r's are semibluffs now. any time a good draw turns into a great draw VIA a scare card (third straightening cards, threeflushes) i'm all-in pokar with big folding equity.

fim

Solid, I use the turn checkraise bluff against many tight players and the turn checkraise legit against the looser players which helps my bluff hands:)

NewbieStyle