PDA

View Full Version : How do you play this?


EricW
08-08-2005, 02:21 AM
Blinds are quite sizable here. What is the correct play on all streets?


#Game No : 2497825069
***** Hand History for Game 2497825069 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:14648477 Level:5 Blinds(75/150) - Monday, August 08, 01:54:23 EDT 2005
Table Table 14521 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 2: TopFSUNole ( $400 )
Seat 3: Bigden85 ( $2580 )
Seat 5: CrZySxYCaO ( $570 )
Seat 7: Hero( $1475 )
Seat 8: skairzo ( $2975 )
Trny:14648477 Level:5
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Jc 6c ]
skairzo folds.
TopFSUNole folds.
Bigden85 calls [150].
>You have options at Table 14103 Table!.
CrZySxYCaO calls [75].
Hero checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3d, Jh, 5d ]
CrZySxYCaO checks.
Hero?????

ChuckNorris
08-08-2005, 02:39 AM
Bet 2/3 pot on the flop, fold to a raise and pretty much go to check/fold mode on later streets if called, unless they're some kind of a crazy calling station or you hit 2-pair or something.

psyduck
08-08-2005, 02:39 AM
Bet 2/3 pot, like T300. I think you can also fold to a push (?) from big stack

edit: Damn Chuck that was fast. We think alike too /images/graemlins/wink.gif

ChipLeader
08-08-2005, 02:43 AM
I prefer a half pot bet, 250.
The shortstack is your main target. The bigstack likely wont want to mess with you with two shorties out there and this doesnt look like a bluff to me. If he raises youre beat and you can fold to him. If the shortstack pushes you have an easy call for just 250 more, but on those times when the bigstack gets involved youre keeping the pot small which is precisely what you want to do here.

08-08-2005, 02:44 AM
Id raise to about 300 and see what the actoin is. I probebly woulndt fold this hand.

freemoney
08-08-2005, 02:45 AM
c/r that [censored] like every single day

ChuckNorris
08-08-2005, 02:49 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I prefer a half pot bet, 250.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I prefer a slightly larger bet (actually now that I think about it, I think I'd bet more than 2/3, 350-400 sounds more like it) on a coordinated flop with two opponents. If button calls your 1/2 pot bet, they're more likely to be on a draw or some other weaker holding than if you bet more strongly. You don't want to offer them a tempting chance to win the pot on later streets or give them anything near good odds for flush-and-or-straight-draws/overcards/whatnot.

ChuckNorris
08-08-2005, 02:52 AM
[ QUOTE ]
c/r that [censored] like every single day

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that the average $20+2'er will take a stab at the pot without something most of the time. You don't want to give them a free turn.

freemoney
08-08-2005, 02:53 AM
this forum has to lear how to play postflop, you guys are so terrified about giving free cards.

ChuckNorris
08-08-2005, 02:55 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Id raise to about 300 and see what the actoin is. I probebly woulndt fold this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please tell me that you don't intend to miniraise preflop to 300 but instead bet 300 on the flop /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
And why couldn't you fold this hand with button and you having decent stacks? I'd instafold this if button so much as raises their eyebrows..

NYCNative
08-08-2005, 02:59 AM
[ QUOTE ]
this forum has to lear how to play postflop, you guys are so terrified about giving free cards.

[/ QUOTE ]When is giving free cards when you have VERY marginal holdings a good idea? A strong hand to let villain catch a little something, sure, but how can you bet the turn when an overcard pops up?

ChuckNorris
08-08-2005, 03:01 AM
[ QUOTE ]
this forum has to lear how to play postflop, you guys are so terrified about giving free cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry but I really can't see how checkraising could be some kind of a standard play in the 20+2's here. Feel free to teach me and us though. I understand that checkraising would be nice if you knew that button would often bet and fold to a raise. I just don't see that being the case here.
Isn't it pretty ABC to be terrified of giving away free cards with a crappy jack top pair on a straight+flush coordinated board against two opponents who can be holding pretty much anything even in a cash game? Add to that the fact that you are in a tournament where you especially want to reduce the risk of going broke even if it slightly damages your CEV.

Of course you haven't necessarily lost the hand if the turn card comes, but a large portion of the turn cards are scary to you, and you don't have position to help you there.

Nottom
08-08-2005, 03:02 AM
I bet 300

ChipLeader
08-08-2005, 03:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]
this forum has to lear how to play postflop, you guys are so terrified about giving free cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

You single-handidly destroyed any arugment you had at the start of the sentence by the time you finished it. Youre playing the odds, and by giving free cards you are granting unlimited odds. I can cite off the top of my head 3 books that say to never give free cards and to value survival over slighlty better EV.
"A mistake that cost you the pot is a catastrophe, a mistake that costs you a bet is not."
Dont be greedy, theres two shortstacks and they cant take the blinds much longer. Take the 450 pot with a solid bet here, run from resistance from the bigstack because he CHOSE to play his hand, which means if he thinks its worth a raise than its likely better than the J rag youre playing.

Nottom
08-08-2005, 03:05 AM
[ QUOTE ]
this forum has to lear how to play postflop, you guys are so terrified about giving free cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trying to check-raise here is awful IMO and I'm a big fan of ill-advised checkraises.

ChipLeader
08-08-2005, 03:09 AM
The bigstack limped a hand which could be anything, but probably isnt. It will be given a standard, loose range of calling:
Ax suited
Two face cards
A low-mid PP
maybe a suited connector

Of these hands, bigstack wont be raising unless he caught. When he's caught, our J with a 5 kicker will be good about 10% of the time, that 10% is when hes raising a midpair and i dont think he would make that play here. He could be calling with many hands i supposed but i dont think hes folding to 300 but calling for 250, and i want to keep the pot small against him with the two other players so close to done. I dont think you have the stack to bet 400 and then turtle up on the turn since almost every card in the deck scares you. I say make your bet, try and take it here and if you meet resistance from the shortstack go for it, if its from the bigstack pick a better time.

lastchance
08-08-2005, 03:19 AM
Well, some people tend to bet this flop with a flush draw, 66+, overcards, and just hands in general. Then again, these people don't limp preflop with t150 blinds either.

So, I think your ranges are right, but it clearly isn't a good idea to bet only if you've caught here.

So, t250, folding to a raise, shoving most turns, I think.

45suited
08-08-2005, 03:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
c/r that [censored] like every single day

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys really don't think that the bigstack is going to put a bet out on the button here after two checks? I do.

Nottom
08-08-2005, 03:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
c/r that [censored] like every single day

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys really don't think that the bigstack is going to put a bet out on the button here after two checks? I do.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you bet out and got put all-in by the big stack do you call?

lastchance
08-08-2005, 03:57 AM
Without a read, no.

And I think we think Big stack is a donk, and donks often don't bet here.

45suited
08-08-2005, 04:03 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Without a read, no.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this.

[ QUOTE ]
And I think we think Big stack is a donk, and donks often don't bet here.

[/ QUOTE ]

A donk because he called from the button, right?

On second thought, especially given my chip position at the table, I change my play to leading out on the flop, folding to a button push.

But against an aggressive bigstack, I like the C/R here. It's a cop-out, but everything is so read dependent.

ChipLeader
08-08-2005, 04:13 AM
I think we've decided the bet out / fold to a raise FROM BIGSTACK is the best play, the issue came down to how much to bet. I liked 250 to keep it small in case the bigstack calls, others liked 300-400 to get him off draws.

I know youre supposed to be happy when they make a mistake and call with poor odds but their poor odds are improved by their position. We dont know what a scare card is, almost all of them are scary, so i like betting out small enough to steal and if bigstack has a draw and wants to fight for it, so be it.

ChuckNorris
08-08-2005, 04:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
A donk because he is playing in a partypoker $20+2 sit'n'go, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

The button thing is just icing on the cake.

lastchance
08-08-2005, 04:15 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Without a read, no.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this.

[ QUOTE ]
And I think we think Big stack is a donk, and donks often don't bet here.

[/ QUOTE ]

A donk because he called from the button, right?

On second thought, especially given my chip position at the table, I change my play to leading out on the flop, folding to a button push.

But against an aggressive bigstack, I like the C/R here. It's a cop-out, but everything is so read dependent.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yupz. He's a donk because he called from the Button. And this is a $22, so he doesn't think much either.

I think you're only getting t150 more if you check most of the time, and you're also getting checked behind here a lot as well.

Nottom
08-08-2005, 04:23 AM
If you wouldn't call a push I think that makes a check-raise even worse since now you lose your stack for no good reason sometimes as well.

45suited
08-08-2005, 04:26 AM
I know, I was just saying that if the guy was very aggressive, I'd C/R.

Nottom
08-08-2005, 04:29 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I know, I was just saying that if the guy was very aggressive, I'd C/R.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but very aggressive players don't limp on the button unless you are smashed.

45suited
08-08-2005, 04:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
True, but very aggressive players don't limp on the button unless you are smashed.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you do see the guys at the 22s who limp with a bigstack into every pot and bet when checked to every time.

curtains
08-08-2005, 04:32 AM
I would bet about 250.

ChipLeader
08-08-2005, 04:37 AM
[ QUOTE ]

I would bet about 250.

[/ QUOTE ]
I like you more and more everytime we agree

curtains
08-08-2005, 04:40 AM
Well Im pretty sure its a mistake. But its possible I'll learn the correct way to play when I attend freemoney's school of postflop play.

ilya
08-08-2005, 04:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]

Well Im pretty sure its a mistake. But its possible I'll learn the correct way to play when I attend freemoney's school of postflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fight! Fight! Fight!

ilya
08-08-2005, 04:51 AM
I lead for 253 but I probably overestimate the efficacy of subliminal advertising.

EricW
08-08-2005, 07:50 AM
Well, here's what I did:

#Game No : 2497825069
***** Hand History for Game 2497825069 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:14648477 Level:5 Blinds(75/150) - Monday, August 08, 01:54:23 EDT 2005
Table Table 14521 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 2: TopFSUNole ( $400 )
Seat 3: Bigden85 ( $2580 )
Seat 5: CrZySxYCaO ( $570 )
Seat 7: Hero ( $1475 )
Seat 8: skairzo ( $2975 )
Trny:14648477 Level:5
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Jc 6c ]
skairzo folds.
TopFSUNole folds.
Bigden85 calls [150].
>You have options at Table 14103 Table!.
CrZySxYCaO calls [75].
Hero checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3d, Jh, 5d ]
CrZySxYCaO checks.
Hero bets [275].
Bigden85 calls [275].
>You have options at Table 14103 Table!.
CrZySxYCaO folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ts ]
Hero checks.
>You have options at Table 13946 Table!.
Bigden85 bets [300].
Hero is all-In [1050]

lastchance
08-08-2005, 07:55 AM
Turn play is much more interesting than flop, IMHO.... I don't know what to do here... I know I don't check-raise though....

EricW
08-08-2005, 08:11 AM
This hand really really sucks.

The flop bet was pretty standard but the turn becomes extremely difficult. His flat call on the flop made me suspect a possible flush draw. His turn bet was extremely weak. I don't think I could just call his turn bet 'cause that would be just terrible. By doing that, if he's really on a flush draw, I'm letting him have it for free pretty much. If I lead out on the flop, I'd have to be a substantial amount and that would kill my stack. I honestly don't know what to do here.

Unarmed
08-08-2005, 08:51 AM
Barf, I check/fold.
Shitty top pair OOP isn't worth it.
Betting I hate because you'll get called by tons of crap and then you're OOP with a shitty hand in a pot you created.
C/Ring I dislike (but not as much as betting) because if called you're OOP with a shitty hand in a bigger pot you created.
You yeah, C/F, hope it checks around and the turn blanks so you can bet there.