Reraised ... what to do, what to do.

[Nottom]

Party 109.

Villian seems reasonable enough.

Seat 1: Hero ( $855 )
Seat 2: guy( $930 )
Seat 3: guy ( $150 )
Seat 4: guy ( $1485 )
Seat 5: guy ( $3515 )
Seat 6: BigMeanie ( $2030 )
Seat 9: Shorty ( $295 )
Seat 10: guy ( $740 )


Blinds(25/50)

Hero is dealt ??

Hero raises [140].
4 folds.
BigMeanie raises [300].
Shorty is all-In [270]
guy folds.

Back to Hero.

What hands do you do what with here?

[freemoney]

u have TT maybe 99

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
u have TT maybe 99

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, lets say i do.
what do i do with them?

[Ogre]

What kind of a junk raise is 140?

[freemoney]

honestly i wish i could give a good response but i really cant i think its really situational and sometimes i do things almost innately and i cant really explain why but i probably smooth call here and if no A or K comes i open push the flop b/c so if an A comes he will check down hands like 88 usually because pot is protected.

[freemoney]

yeah theres basically zero hands i like the raise to 140 with.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of a junk raise is 140?

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, you've played with me enough to know thats what I raise at this level.

[Ryendal]

Well, I thought such reraise meant he had AK AA, KK, QQ .
So I would play the hand accordingly
But Freemoney think he can really hold such junk as 88 and all my logic is false in this case.

[Ogre]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What kind of a junk raise is 140?

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, you've played with me enough to know thats what I raise at this level.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was just kidding thomas. i remeber seeing you raise it to 140 once before.

[freemoney]

i think this is why its so situational...there are alot of players who only do this raise with the range you listed and theres people who do it with alot wider of a range of hands, against a pretty aggro guy the pot is too big to fold when it comes back to you pre and then when its a nonscary flop i cant fold so maybe its one problem that leads to another...

[Matt R.]

Is it 160 or 300 more for you to call? I always forget how these hand histories come out. If it's 300 more, I'd push QQ+ and AKs. For 160 more I'd push with those hands and probably call with AKo, AQs, JJ, TT. Fold everything else in both instances. Tighter might be better for the latter group of hands, but having shorty in there sure is giving you some juicy pot odds. Some people would only make this smallish reraise with AA/KK though, so I think a read is really important here.

[Nottom]

300 total, 160 back to me.

[Matt R.]

Yuck -- I don't like that situation because you can be almost sure he's got a big hand, but you pretty much have to call with a wide range with so much in the pot. I'd call with approximately the range I gave, and just play the flop cautiously.

[ChuckNorris]

Without reads I think I'd fold everything else and push with QQ+.. Maybe even should be KK+ but then maybe not. The minireraise just smells like a Big Pocket to me. I don't play the 100+9's, so I don't know if people there minireraise to represent AA half the time they minireraise or something, but that would be kinda weird I think. And I would suppose that they're not usually fishy enough to minireraise with something like AT or KQ here.

I don't much like calling in almost any scenario. If you have reads that make you think you are good enough to push, then push, but I don't think you should call and see the flop just because you have nice pot odds, since you have little implied odds and not winning the pot seriously damages your stack.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't much like calling in almost any scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure I'd call with any pair that I wasn't pushing with.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]

What hands do you do what with here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would fold Q4o here.




I got 8 running... I'll probably answer for some other hands later.

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
Yuck -- I don't like that situation because you can be almost sure he's got a big hand, but you pretty much have to call with a wide range with so much in the pot. I'd call with approximately the range I gave, and just play the flop cautiously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you want to see the flop with a wide range if you're sure they've got a big hand? You can't hope to flop 2-pair or better, and if you don't get two-pair or better, how can you think to be ahead if villain's likely holding is QQ+? How cautiously are you planning to play the flop? Pray for a check all the way to the river? If they check (pretty much regardless of the flop), it's just as likely (or more so) to be a sign of weakness as it is to be a sign of trapping your entire stack in.

It's not like you always have to call when you have nice odds. This is a tournament we're talking about.

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't much like calling in almost any scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure I'd call with any pair that I wasn't pushing with.

[/ QUOTE ]
So you don't put villain on such a tight range as I do? How would you play your pairs then, and what pairs?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't much like calling in almost any scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure I'd call with any pair that I wasn't pushing with.

[/ QUOTE ]
So you don't put villain on such a tight range as I do? How would you play your pairs then, and what pairs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm getting almost 5-1 immediate odds on my money and have another 550 behind. I'm willing to see if I can spike a set here. I'm probably wrong.

[Matt R.]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you want to see the flop with a wide range if you're sure they've got a big hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you're getting nearly 5:1 on your call.

[ QUOTE ]
You can't hope to flop 2-pair or better, and if you don't get two-pair or better, how can you think to be ahead if villain's likely holding is QQ+?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure you can -- as well as a set with your pocket pairs or a flush draw with AKs/AQs. Plus you obviously have implied odds for the rest of your stack if you do hit nicely. By cautiously I don't mean you should always check/fold if you don't hit perfectly, but be prepared to fold on a lot of flops.

Even though it's a tournament, your pot odds are fantastic, and a call won't knock you out. I just think there's too much in this pot to fold a hand like TT or AQs to such a small re-raise.

[Nottom]

OK lets just get to the point. What do you do with the following hands:

JJ, QQ, KK, AK

[Matt R.]

No specific reads as to what his small re-raise means, and I push QQ+ and AKs. I call with JJ and AKo. I think QQ may be a call, but I don't think you can get away from it on a flop with all undercards, so I push it with the pot this big.

As to your above posts on calling with any pair to spike a set -- I kind of agree I think, and I might widen my call range up a bit with medium pairs.

[ChuckNorris]

Wow. Would you guys limp a pair hoping to spike a set with 75/150 blinds and a T700 stack? I wouldn't do it if I had position and 3 limpers before me. But here there's one guy all-in and another one showing pretty big strength. And I don't think medium pairs have more value than deuces here.

[Nottom]

Thats not the same thing and you know it.

[ QUOTE ]
OK lets just get to the point. What do you do with the following hands:

JJ, QQ, KK, AK

[/ QUOTE ]

call, push, push, call... w/out a read.

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
Thats not the same thing and you know it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, how is it so different, except that here I think you have even less "set value" because you're OOP and there are less opponents catching something worse? I really don't think you can even dream of playing a hand just hoping to spike a set here. You're probably trying to say that you'll sometimes win the pot otherwise, but with the range I'm putting the villain on (and which you have not disagreed openly with, or have you?) that's just not happening.

I'm not trying to be some kind of a smartass here or anything. I'm tired, I suck at poker and I respect your posts here a lot. I'm just not getting this. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thats not the same thing and you know it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, how is it so different, except that here I think you have even less "set value" because you're OOP and there are less opponents catching something worse? I really don't think you can even dream of playing a hand just hoping to spike a set here. You're probably trying to say that you'll sometimes win the pot otherwise, but with the range I'm putting the villain on (and which you have not disagreed openly with, or have you?) that's just not happening.

I'm not trying to be some kind of a smartass here or anything. I'm tired, I suck at poker and I respect your posts here a lot. I'm just not getting this. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well to begin with you pretty much know what you opponent has and you are gonna get payed off most of the time. Plus you are closing the action which is always a plus. I think its pretty close and I may very well be wrong, but this is the type of spot I'm ready to gamble a bit on in order to get a big stack.

I also think the allin player helps us with a hand like TT-JJ (which are pretty much the extent of pairs I would be raising UTG anyway) since if the reraiser is getting frisky with AK or something he might just decide to check it down post flop or he might check down with KK if an A comes giving you a couple more cards to beat him.

[ChuckNorris]

Okay, thanks for the detailed explanation. I understand your point better now, but I still disagree with you. I don't know if this can be settled for good without simulations or something, but my gut still says so strongly to fold TT here that I don't intend to change my opinion easily.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah theres basically zero hands i like the raise to 140 with.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the heck is wrong with raising to 140????

[Jman28]

With AK, QQ or JJ I call and proceed with caution. Luckily the shorty is all in, so you can give the big meanie credit for most bets post flop.

AA I reraise to the smallest amount that isn't transparent, whatever that is. Maybe all-in.

KK I think I do the same, and I'm ready to go broke with it.