5-Card Draw: Limping Villain

[Biggle10]

Occasionally when playing draw, I run into a player who never raises and then will draw 2 most every time. Villain does this with both trips and small pair w/Ace.

I have a hard time after the draw value betting anything less than trips against this kind of player. Should I even be trying? I hate checking behind when I make KK up, but that seems like right choice most of the time.

Anyone have experience with this kind of opponent?

[MarkGritter]

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Occasionally when playing draw, I run into a player who never raises and then will draw 2 most every time. Villain does this with both trips and small pair w/Ace.

I have a hard time after the draw value betting anything less than trips against this kind of player. Should I even be trying? I hate checking behind when I make KK up, but that seems like right choice most of the time.

Anyone have experience with this kind of opponent?

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Well, you're raising predraw, right? He has xxA a lot more often than he has trips. That's a lot of equity right there.

The main question for value-betting, though, is with what he will call, not what he has predraw. If he makes a smaller two pair? Only aces up and better? Anything? If only aces up or better, then obviously you shouldn't bet anything worse than this.

With two small pair I think the odds are still against a bet being profitable, since there are strictly less than 66 2-card pair combinations left, but I think there are ~84 combinations that make trips (or better) and ~120 ways to make aces-up (or trip aces). So it seems that when called after the draw you will most likely be behind if you only hold two pair.

[Moneyline]

Whoa... somebody other than me asking a draw question. I'll respond, but just keep in mind that I'm the one who's usually asking the questions.

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Anyone have experience with this kind of opponent?

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I try not to sit at a table unless I will experience an opponent who plays like this. /images/graemlins/wink.gif ... I also try to sit on their left.

There are a few things you can do that will help your decision. The first is raising before the draw. The type of player who'll limp with trips is usually doing it so she can limp/raise you. So if you raise and just get called, you can be pretty confident that your opponent didn't start with trips. Also, make note of whether or not this player will bet into you after the draw if she improves, or if she usually goes for a check/raise or check/call. If she's the type of player who'll almost always bet out, you can start tossing in a lot of value bets. Finally, take note of whether your opponent is loose after the draw. If she's playing loose enough predraw where she's routinely limping in with hands like 66Axx, then there is a good chance she'll look you up after the draw with all sorts of crap too... I'd make finding out this last bit of information a priority.

Personally, I value bet alot. I find that even though I usually don't get called, poor players eventually start looking me up with all sorts of cheese because they think I'm stealing from them. I'm beginning to think that this is where most of my profit comes from in draw, and I'm also beginning to see why Mike Caro harps on having a "wild image" so much.

Just my opinion...

[Biggle10]

Thanks for the input. BTW, I do raise before the draw when I'm playing.
One more question: I currently only play 1/2 and I'm a winning player at this limit. I've taken shots at higher limits and the games just don't seem 'good'. The complete idiots are fewer and far between and the remaining players actually have thoughts going through their heads. I tend to basically break-even when I'm playing anything higher than the lowest limits. I suspect that I'm not making the necessary adjustments, but I'm not sure what those would be. Any pointers for making this transition?

I'm so happy that Pokerroom added draw, lots of juicy games. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Moneyline]

I can't speak for Pokerroom, but the rake at Paradise for 2/4 is massive, so if Pokerroom has the same rake structure this is probably why you can't beat the game when you move up in limits. Personally, I only play draw at the "higher" limits (3/6-5/10) and if the game isn't soft I'll just play hold 'em instead. If you can beat 1/2 you can beat the bigger games just as long as you have good game selection skills.

[DOMIT]

As Moneyline stated, game selection is important.

Something that I've done in the past is to check out the games for a couple days before I play (or if the game is just that good.. I'll jump into it.. but after watching it for a while).

Watching the game, I'll open up notes for the players and take notes on everything that I can. On Pokerroom, you can't see what opponents had at showdown if you weren't dealt in, but you can still get a line on how people are playing. <ul type="square">
Does player X always raise-open the button?
Does player Y always seem to draw 2 and bet?
<font color="white">..</font> (As was stated by MarkGritter: "He has xxA a lot
<font color="white">.....</font> more often than he has trips".
<font color="white">.....</font> - according to SuperSystem, Table XII, the probability
<font color="white">.....</font> of a player being dealt trips is 2.11% or 46.3 to 1
[/list]
So if you want to play the bigger games, go for it! (Personally, I'd pick a day/time that I'm already a winner for the day. Then I'd be 'taking a shot' with my winnings ; )

Just make sure you watch the table for a while first.

PS/thought: remember that stat about the trips too! If you're raising first in, he's more likely to have the trips if he knows that you're a solid player, but if you keep check-folding to a bet from a 2-card draw, he's always going to bet after you check. If that's the type of player it is, I'd check-call all the time with two pair, and prolly check-call unimproved at some frequency around the times that he's betting (snap off bluffs)--depending of course, harder to call if there are others to act after you.

Good Luck!

[Biggle10]

I need to be better with my note taking. Probably one of the reasons I don't excel when moving up. You must have novels written on some of the Paradise players as its a small pool of players and one see the regulars over and over again.

[DOMIT]

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You must have novels written on some of the Paradise players

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/images/graemlins/grin.gif