Common Situation, But I Never Know What To Do

[Jazza]

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Hero ($101.75)
MP2 ($72.80)
MP3 ($38.35)
CO ($108.20)
<font color="#C00000">Button ($41.65)</font>
SB ($130.30)
BB ($209.35)
UTG ($26.35)
UTG+1 ($164.75)
<font color="#C00000">UTG+2 ($124.90)</font>

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises to $3.5</font>, Hero calls $3.50, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls $3.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($12) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets $12</font>, Hero ??

i have no read on UTG+2 becuase 10-handed is too boring to pay attention too

anyway, this happens fairly often, i call a pfr with QQ-77, flop an overpair, and pre flop raiser pots it

what goes through you guys's minds here?

[djoyce003]

I would put him on QQ-AA or AK or AQ.

Cheapest way to find out other than calling down is make a big raise here. I'd raise it up to 30. If he calls i'm done, if he reraises i'm done.

[poboy]

[ QUOTE ]

i have no read on UTG+2 becuase 10-handed is too boring to pay attention too


[/ QUOTE ]

This is where the problem is. With a read this situation plays itself, if he's TP you fold if he's LAG you raise. What about PT stats? If his PFR is high I like reraising pf, again makes PF alot easier. Without a read I let it go. JMO

[kongo_totte]

My standard line is making it $30, and be done if he is still in the hand on the turn. Folding seems might weak.

[-Skeme-]

Why does nobody like calling here?

[Hoopster81]

and fold when he 2/3 pots the turn?

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
Why does nobody like calling here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause I don't see a plan on future streets no matter what falls and what villian does. I guess I'd be foreced to bet if it was checked to me on the turn, but that bet might aswell be in the form of a raise on the flop.

[Macquarie]

Heads up I'd definitely call here, and get my information from what villain does on the turn. Way ahead or way behind.

Problem here is button, so I think I raise here to make sure he doesn't come along too.

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
Heads up I'd definitely call here, and get my information from what villain does on the turn. Way ahead or way behind.


[/ QUOTE ]

With all the draws out there, I would not say this is a WA/WB situation.

I'd raise even if heads up.

[Macquarie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heads up I'd definitely call here, and get my information from what villain does on the turn. Way ahead or way behind.


[/ QUOTE ]

With all the draws out there, I would not say this is a WA/WB situation.

I'd raise even if heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no point in protecting against draws if you're behind. Charging the button in this hand is important, but heads up I don't think the most important consideration is that the pfr might just have a draw.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
and fold when he 2/3 pots the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Who the hell keeps betting big with missed overcards once called?


[ QUOTE ]
With all the draws out there, I would not say this is a WA/WB situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only legitimate draw for UTG+2 to have here would be spades. If he's betting spades here, he's betting his overpair. If you raise here hoping he only has KQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif or something, I doubt he folds often. I'd say an overpair is more likely than spades anyway.

[Jazza]

the reason I'm not a fan of the raise here, is i don't see villian often calling the flop raise, then checking turn and river (after I've checked behind on turn), what the hell would he do this with?

so I might as well make this raise with 22-JJ yeah?

if anyone's interested in this particular hand, i folded, Button called, turn check-check, river check, all in, call, Button made flush with 75/images/graemlins/spade.gif, UTG+2 had TT

[djoyce003]

[ QUOTE ]
Why does nobody like calling here?

[/ QUOTE ]

If i'm ahead I want to win this pot right now because of the draw....and the potential overcards of the preflop raiser. If I raise big here and get called, i probably want to check it down or would fold to a large reraise. I don't want to fold on the turn to another continuation bet when I might be ahead.

Not all villains stop firing after the continuation bet...some of these guys will fire on all three streets, don't know if this is one of those villains or not, but if it is, i'm raising for sure here because I don't want to call this bet, and then be faced with the exact same situation on the turn, wondering if i'm ahead or not. If you raise to 30, get called and led at again you can assume you are behind and fold...your other option is call 12 here, and fold to another turn bet, or call it all the way down which will cost a lot more than 30 most likely.

[Macquarie]

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I don't want to call this bet, and then be faced with the exact same situation on the turn, wondering if i'm ahead or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

But I think this is the key. If you call and he pots the turn, you are not in the exact same situation. You have a lot more information. Sure, some villains will fire a pot-sized continuation bet, but most will either bet weak, or not bet at all.

Calling the flop, you are in danger of incorrectly folding to a villain willing to pot-size CB the turn. But without a read, I'd say a flop and turn pot bet is far more likely a hand that beats you than two continuation bets.

Again though, i think I'd flat call heads up only,,,I'd raise in this case with the player with position on me still in the hand.

[beset7]

3-bet PF and it's no longer a difficult hand.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet PF and it's no longer a difficult hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a fairly easy way to get trapped and/or lose more.

[GrunchCan]

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Why does nobody like calling here?

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems to me like if you just call here, the opponent is much more likely to bet the turn again with nothing than call a big flop rerasie with the same nothing. Rasising the flop has a higher chance of losing less when behind?

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
Rasising the flop has a higher chance of losing less when behind?

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling has the best chance of losing less when you're behind. A very small number of hands that are beating you will fold to your raise. Raising just creates a bigger bet and you invest more chips than you normally would've had to.

Maybe it's just me, but I see a very small number of opponent's willing to fire a PSB on the turn with just missed overcards.

[Macquarie]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me like if you just call here, the opponent is much more likely to bet the turn again with nothing than call a big flop rerasie with the same nothing. Rasising the flop has a higher chance of losing less when behind?


[/ QUOTE ]

Putting in a big raise on a flop like this HU will certainly find out whether you are ahead. But do you really want to find out if you are ahead by offering villain a large piece of your stack and seeing if he wants to take it?

[GrunchCan]

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Maybe it's just me, but I see a very small number of opponent's willing to fire a PSB on the turn with just missed overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? That could be a leak in my game.

[GrunchCan]

Ok, but if we just call (I assume the alternative to raising is calling, folding is out?), won't we eventually put that same number of chips and more in later streets becasue the bets will get bigger?

[Macquarie]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, but if we just call (I assume the alternative to raising is calling, folding is out?), won't we eventually put that same number of chips and more in later streets becasue the bets will get bigger?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if we call and keep going with the hand on the turn and river we'll likely put at least as many chips in the pot. But we get added information along the way (his turn and river action). This added information we can use to get away from (some) of the times we are behind. If we raise the flop, we always lose all that money when we are behind.

Raising the flop HU is certainly a mistake - we fold all worse hands and get called by all better hands. By making this flop mistake, however, we avoid making mistakes on later streets - this is the main argument for raising the flop: find out where we are for sure.

Flat calling, we certainly risk making mistakes on later streets. However, we will have more information by then, and I argue we should call and play on, risking making a mistake on the turn, rather than making a certain mistake on the flop.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3-bet PF and it's no longer a difficult hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a fairly easy way to get trapped and/or lose more.

[/ QUOTE ]

How so? This is an automatic 3-bet for me. I'm way ahead of the majority of the average utg+2 raisers hand range and I want it heads up with position. I can easily fold to a push and a smooth call narrows his hand range down much further.

[Macquarie]

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I'm way ahead of the majority of the average utg+2 raisers hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this true? An average EP raiser would have two overcards or an overpair here. Better to see the flop cheap and let him miss his overcards isn't it?