Faith Not "Enough" in Chritianity?

[David Sklansky]

I have a feeling that critics of Christianity, including myself, as well as members of some other religions, and athiests, sometimes make a statement (regarding what it takes to be "saved") that they kind of figure is obviously exaggerated. Christians, however often assume that there is no exaggeration in those statements.

Speaking only for myself (but thinking that most Christian critcs would agree with me) my actual understanding is this:

The Christian god wants two things from humans. That they be good and that they believe in him. If they do, they are "saved". There seems to be some difference of opinion among Christians if the "being good" part should be considered only a indication that you believe, or is in fact relevant in and of itself. But it doesn't matter for the purposes of this discussion. Because all Christians seem to believe that beleiving in Jesus while SIMULTANEOUSLY doing bad things or PLANNING to do bad things is AUTOMATIC evidence that you don't believe. (What I am not sure about is the case where the capitalized word is changed to EXPECTING.)

So when critics say that a Christian can be a scoundrel and still go to heaven if they have the right faith, I think most of them realize that the scoundrel has to have changed his ways before his proclamation of belief holds any water. I'm guessing that if he just had been shot after molesting a child, and using her as a shield against police he was firing at, and now professes his new found faith and his desire to be good ten seconds before he dies, he has a problem as far as Chritian belief goes. And that most non Christians have the same opinion about Christian belief in this case.

A less dramatic example is the fellow who attends Church, does all the necessary preliminaries, truly believes that Jesus exists, and is planning to get the last rites and repent before he dies. But he is also planning to have way more fun than he should before that happens. Most non-Christians, again assume this guy will run into a problem according to Chritianity.

Now even if all the above is correct, there are still a lot of things about the way Chritianity overemphasizes faith that I, and others don't like. But it isn't as extreme as our statements sometimes appear. That subject is for another time.

For now I would just like to know if I accurately described the Christian position and also if I have accurately described the way most non Chritians think of Christianity as regards to this subject.

[ QUOTE ]

So when critics say that a Christian can be a scoundrel and still go to heaven if they have the right faith, I think most of them realize that the scoundrel has to have changed his ways before his proclamation of belief holds any water. I'm guessing that if he just had been shot after molesting a child, and using her as a shield against police he was firing at, and now professes his new found faith and his desire to be good ten seconds before he dies, he has a problem as far as Chritian belief goes. And that most non Christians have the same opinion about Christian belief in this case.


[/ QUOTE ]

"proclamation of beliefs", and "professes new found faith".
the truth of these proclamtions and profesations(which only God can know) is going to be the determining factor for christians. if the child molester actually finds faith rather than merely professing it in his last seconds i think many christians(esp evangelical and fund) think he will be ok and will not be punished for having the misfortune to die seconds after this conversion of the heart.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So when critics say that a Christian can be a scoundrel and still go to heaven if they have the right faith, I think most of them realize that the scoundrel has to have changed his ways before his proclamation of belief holds any water. I'm guessing that if he just had been shot after molesting a child, and using her as a shield against police he was firing at, and now professes his new found faith and his desire to be good ten seconds before he dies, he has a problem as far as Chritian belief goes. And that most non Christians have the same opinion about Christian belief in this case.


[/ QUOTE ]

"proclamation of beliefs", and "professes new found faith".
the truth of these proclamtions and profesations(which only God can know) is going to be the determining factor for christians. if the child molester actually finds faith rather than merely professing it in his last seconds i think most christians think he will be ok and will not be punished for having the misfortune to die seconds after this conversion of the heart.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree with this. My Christian upbringing taught me that proclaiming your faith isn't enough- you must truly believe it, and only God can make that determination.

[vulturesrow]

David,

I think that is a pretty good summation. Christians of all stripes recognized that just saying "I believe" and truly believing are two separate things. The bottom line is that God can see what is in our hearts and he is the ultimate judge. This is why I find my Church's teaching (the Roman Catholic Church) to be the most reasonable on this subject. To claim to absolutely know the mind of an omniscient God is the height of arrogance in my opinion. Theologians try to make their best intepretation based on the signs which God has given us. But many things are are not easily figured out.

[RJT]

There are so many variations of Christianity, that it is hard to say yes or no whether you got it pretty much right. But, for the sake of discussion, it certainly won’t hurt to say you got it pretty much right. (One reason this is way more difficult to discuss specifically is because ( if I understand what you are asking correctly) this is one of the big differences in Catholicism and some Protestants, i.e. "Justification by Faith".)

I will take a stab at your basic point though; because what you are describing is basically someone like me. Not literally, but in general. Your poll a while back about the degree of trauma to a Christian if he found out Jesus was not God was a very good litmus test. I failed. I should be totally devastated if that were to happen. Maybe I in reality would, but I imagine I probably wouldn’t.

Therefore, although I think Christianity to be true, I in truth probably really don’t have much faith. Although, my intellect (ironically) says yes, my heart has not truly been touched in the manner PairtheBoard talks about.

So, to answer your question, I don’t know what will become of folk like me.

I do find it hard to imagine that if God exists he is not unlike women. I have yet to meet a woman who eventually does not want to get married. They all start out saying not so. But, stay with one long enough and tell me she is still cool with no ring. God probably wants us to make a commitment.


Your point about over emphasizing faith is curious to me. I can see not wanting to taking a stance, I guess. I can easily see deciding against Christianity. But, once one decides on Christianity, it is hard to understand how faith can be overemphasized. Even more so, why one would not want to think it highly important. It is a good thing to the believer.

[coolhandluke]

David, an interesting question,

However, this is one of the core debated areas in Christian theology, and there is NO way to sum all the views into one. there are at least 4 camps that would have to be examined (that I know of, There are some especially orthodox, that I am not familiar enough with to knowledgeably comment on)

The four camps that would have to be examined are:

1. Catholic, (roman, and any of the various branches in full communion with the Roman church)

2. Magesterial Protestantism (Lutheran)

3. Reformed Protestantism (Calvin)

4. Evangelical Protestantism (Baptist, and a whole host of others)

each is a seperate discussion really. I don't know if you care for that much detail, but if you do, I'd be happy to talk about them, is there any one you'd like to look at first?

[lehighguy]

Furthermore, to my knowledge the only sin unforgivable is suicide, since you can't possibly repent since its your last action on earth.

[coolhandluke]

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, to my knowledge the only sin unforgivable is suicide, since you can't possibly repent since its your last action on earth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, totally dependent on which branch of christianity were talking about.

And, after thinking about it briefly, the original question is only really valid in 2 of the 4 areas I mentioned.

[David Sklansky]

"each is a seperate discussion really. I don't know if you care for that much detail, but if you do, I'd be happy to talk about them, is there any one you'd like to look at first?"

Actually I would love to hear the details of the differences. But it is only fair to tell you that the reason has nothing to do with an interest in religion per se. I'm really only interested in the different axioms people come up with, what we can learn about people depending on their axioms, and whether they properly derive theorems from those axioms. Given that, you may not want to go to the trouble.

[warlockjd]

My perspective is a bit different than most. I was raised in a cult/sect faith healing environment for my first 15 years. Now atheist or agnostic depending on my mood. But here's the rather weird cultish perspective that I was taught.

It's either heaven or hell, no purgatory, and the choice is eternal. To not go to hell:

1. Must believe Jesus is son of God

2. Must repent sins to him.

3. Can't sin then die without repenting said sin.

4. For some reason, Jewish people have an out since they are God's chosen people. If they die without doing 1-3, when Jesus returns, they rise up from the dead and he gives them the option to change their minds on 1-3 and go to heaven.

5. My logical conclusion, was that God would have some threshhold for the constant 'sin then repent, then repeat same sin' people. If they did it too much, it was BS and still hell for them.

6. If you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, all bets are off and you cannot go to Heaven no matter what (just the Holy Spirit (not God the Father or Son-Jesus)

7. If you take the Mark of the Beast (Antichrist) all bets are off and it's hell for you.

With these doctrines, if one is struggling with faith/etc, one can simply blashpeme the Holy Ghost, and never worry about it again.

I'm pretty sure these rules are stricter than anything mainstream. It was very weird when I started spotting logical inconsistencies in my indoctrination around 3rd grade.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, to my knowledge the only sin unforgivable is suicide, since you can't possibly repent since its your last action on earth.

[/ QUOTE ]

The sin against the Holy Spirit that will not be forgiven is most likely attributing works of God/miracles to demonic forces. And re suicide, the state of mind of the person would be taken into account, as to be a sin an act must be known to be sinful and be a freely chosen act which suicide by a person with psychological problems would not necessarily be.

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, to my knowledge the only sin unforgivable is suicide, since you can't possibly repent since its your last action on earth.

[/ QUOTE ]

The sin against the Holy Spirit that will not be forgiven is most likely attributing works of God/miracles to demonic forces. And re suicide, the state of mind of the person would be taken into account, as to be a sin an act must be known to be sinful and be a freely chosen act which suicide by a person with psychological problems would not necessarily be.

[/ QUOTE ]

For those interested in this issue, Graham Greene's "The Heart of the Matter" is a fascinating study. For that matter, people reading this thread might enjoy reading "The End of the Affair" as well. I won't get into details for fear of ruining the ending, but it deals with the sufficiency of belief.

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
"proclamation of beliefs", and "professes new found faith".
the truth of these proclamtions and profesations(which only God can know) is going to be the determining factor for christians. if the child molester actually finds faith rather than merely professing it in his last seconds i think many christians(esp evangelical and fund) think he will be ok and will not be punished for having the misfortune to die seconds after this conversion of the heart.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, to my knowledge the only sin unforgivable is suicide, since you can't possibly repent since its your last action on earth.

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically what you are saying is a person who is in a great amount of pain and commits suicide has zero chance of going to heaven, but a child molester can go to heaven as long as he truly "finds faith".

Is this the belief of most christians?

[mike4bmp]

[ QUOTE ]
Because all Christians seem to believe that beleiving in Jesus while SIMULTANEOUSLY doing bad things or PLANNING to do bad things is AUTOMATIC evidence that you don't believe. (What I am not sure about is the case where the capitalized word is changed to EXPECTING.)

So when critics say that a Christian can be a scoundrel and still go to heaven if they have the right faith, I think most of them realize that the scoundrel has to have changed his ways before his proclamation of belief holds any water.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this depends on what school of theology you subscribe to. With the exception of being a "scoundrel" which would mean the person is living a hypocrtical life and probably doesn't "believe", the average knowledgeable Christian understands that his faith/theology system has certain guidlines.
If you are Calvinist I believe the above statement would be true...since if you were chosen to be saved then you would not commit any sins (at least you would try hard not to). If you were an Arminianist then you would believe that you had a choice in every manner...i.e. to commit the sin...in which you would have the opportunity to repent later for...lest you lose Salvation.
If you are Catholic (like myself) then it wouldn't matter because you would be guilty all the time anyways!! LOL! J/K
If you are Catholic then you have to be concerned what the Church would consider a venial sin or a mortal sin and confess and do penance accordingly.

Although hypocrisy is prevalent in Christian churches I think it has to do with nominalism due to characteristics of the foundation of the Christian faith as being a "PERSONAL conviction."
It is interesting to note that although Christianity is an Evangelical religion which requires the "spreading of the Good news" people tend to get complacent with their own salvation (unless you are a fundamentalist). Its kind of like saying, "oh well I know that I am saved and that Jesus forgives me so I don't have to sweat the things that are deemed as bad by other Christians."

[coolhandluke]

Allright, I will attempt to answer based on my 4 previous large areas of christian thought. here is the crux of the argument from your post

[ QUOTE ]
Because all Christians seem to believe that beleiving in Jesus while SIMULTANEOUSLY doing bad things or PLANNING to do bad things is AUTOMATIC evidence that you don't believe. (What I am not sure about is the case where the capitalized word is changed to EXPECTING.)


[/ QUOTE ]



1. Catholicism (roman, anythying in full communion with rome, and I'm pretty sure the orthodox faiths also). This is a tough one, since they don't really have the concept of "saving faith" like I believe you are referencing here. They believe in a 3 stage salvation, you ARE saved, you are BEING saved, you hope to BE saved. now, they would say that an informed, knowledgeable Christian, who knowingly does very bad things is in mortal sin, and seperated from God, (including for eternity, if they happened to die at that point) it does not mean they didn't have faith in Christ to begin with.


2. Reformed Protestantism. Calvinism teaches, in its most literal since, that nothing anyone does can possibly have any effect on there salvation, so it doesn't matter how much bad stuff a person does or doesn't do, but whether or not they were pre-ordained (elected) by God for salvation.

Calvins theology is very roughly summed up in the 5 letter acrostic TULIP, each letter has bearing on your question, so I will go through them.
T - total depravity - mankind is inherently totally evil, and unable to choose to do anything pleasing to God on there own. So, in other words, we are all really expected to be really bad

U - Unconditional Election - God chooses those whom he will, at his own divine perogative. How Good or bad they are is immaterial. this is the only thing that matters whether or not you will reach heaven.

L - Limited Atonement - The sacrifice of Jesus is only efficacious for those pre-ordained by God for Salvation.
The Goodness and badness doesn't matter.

I - Irresistible Grace - God's grace that is offered to those he elects cannot be denied, So, even if a bad guy wants to be bad, and has no desire to ever do good or know God, if he is elected, God's grace will win him over.

P - Perserverance of the saints ***** no matter what one does, if they are elected, they will be saved. So, Pol Pot, Hitler, Oprah, the guy that founded the IRS or any other society destroying plague of humanity can keep right on doing whatever, and there salvation in safe.


Sorry it took me so long, I'll get to the other two (more complicated} ASAP

any questions about these?




[ QUOTE ]
I have a feeling that critics of Christianity, including myself, as well as members of some other religions, and athiests, sometimes make a statement (regarding what it takes to be "saved") that they kind of figure is obviously exaggerated. Christians, however often assume that there is no exaggeration in those statements.

Speaking only for myself (but thinking that most Christian critcs would agree with me) my actual understanding is this:

The Christian god wants two things from humans. That they be good and that they believe in him. If they do, they are "saved". There seems to be some difference of opinion among Christians if the "being good" part should be considered only a indication that you believe, or is in fact relevant in and of itself. But it doesn't matter for the purposes of this discussion. Because all Christians seem to believe that beleiving in Jesus while SIMULTANEOUSLY doing bad things or PLANNING to do bad things is AUTOMATIC evidence that you don't believe. (What I am not sure about is the case where the capitalized word is changed to EXPECTING.)

So when critics say that a Christian can be a scoundrel and still go to heaven if they have the right faith, I think most of them realize that the scoundrel has to have changed his ways before his proclamation of belief holds any water. I'm guessing that if he just had been shot after molesting a child, and using her as a shield against police he was firing at, and now professes his new found faith and his desire to be good ten seconds before he dies, he has a problem as far as Chritian belief goes. And that most non Christians have the same opinion about Christian belief in this case.

A less dramatic example is the fellow who attends Church, does all the necessary preliminaries, truly believes that Jesus exists, and is planning to get the last rites and repent before he dies. But he is also planning to have way more fun than he should before that happens. Most non-Christians, again assume this guy will run into a problem according to Chritianity.

Now even if all the above is correct, there are still a lot of things about the way Chritianity overemphasizes faith that I, and others don't like. But it isn't as extreme as our statements sometimes appear. That subject is for another time.

For now I would just like to know if I accurately described the Christian position and also if I have accurately described the way most non Chritians think of Christianity as regards to this subject.

[/ QUOTE ]

[David Sklansky]

Appreciate your comments. Betting Not Ready will say you are wrong.

[sexdrugsmoney]

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8

Really David, no offence but you seem very curious about Christianity yet clearly you haven't read the New Testament. (I would hope given your Jewish heritage you have read the Old Testament, at the very least the Torah)

When I wanted to know about Islam, I read the Qu'ran and Ibn Warraq. (for both sides)

If you want to know about Christianity, read the New Testament, you already have the other side taken care of. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Cheers,
SDM

[The Dude]

David,

You're not going to very far with this one. There are so many different views within Christianity regarding the "minimum requirements" to be saved that it will be very difficult for an outsider to get a view they can apply to Christianity.

Sadly enough, blurt out some random requiements and I'll find you a Christian who thinks you're right on.

[Girchuck]

This depends on the method of suicide.
If you slash your veins in a bath tub, or take a slow poison, you'll have some time to repent this sin.

[BillsChips]

From a historical perspective, the idea that you must believe in Jesus as a condition for salvation, was introduced by Emperor Constantine's panel when they assembled the New Testament using only a few of the hundreds of gospels that existed at the time. The Gnostic gospels, which were among the few rejected gospels to survive Constantines minions, held that Jesus said that you only had to follow his teachings to be saved, and that Jesus often liked to raise from UTG with small suited connectors.

[MaxPowerPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
2. Reformed Protestantism. Calvinism teaches, in its most literal since, that nothing anyone does can possibly have any effect on there salvation, so it doesn't matter how much bad stuff a person does or doesn't do, but whether or not they were pre-ordained (elected) by God for salvation.

Calvins theology is very roughly summed up in the 5 letter acrostic TULIP, each letter has bearing on your question, so I will go through them.
T - total depravity - mankind is inherently totally evil, and unable to choose to do anything pleasing to God on there own. So, in other words, we are all really expected to be really bad

U - Unconditional Election - God chooses those whom he will, at his own divine perogative. How Good or bad they are is immaterial. this is the only thing that matters whether or not you will reach heaven.

L - Limited Atonement - The sacrifice of Jesus is only efficacious for those pre-ordained by God for Salvation.
The Goodness and badness doesn't matter.

I - Irresistible Grace - God's grace that is offered to those he elects cannot be denied, So, even if a bad guy wants to be bad, and has no desire to ever do good or know God, if he is elected, God's grace will win him over.

P - Perserverance of the saints ***** no matter what one does, if they are elected, they will be saved. So, Pol Pot, Hitler, Oprah, the guy that founded the IRS or any other society destroying plague of humanity can keep right on doing whatever, and there salvation in safe.


[/ QUOTE ]

You have done a very poor job of explaining Calvinism. I am a Calvinist and agree with almost nothing you have said here.

This document is actually where the TULIP acrostic comes from. If a manifesto exists for Calvinism...this is it:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/canons_of_dordt.html

A confession (statement of faith) that reflects historic baptist calvinism:
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm

[coolhandluke]

Not ready probably won't agree because he's in the two camps I haven't talked about yet.

[kuro]

It's tricky.
Romans Chapter 4-6 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Romans%204-6%20;&version=49;) and James 2:14-26 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=james%202:14-26%20;&version=49;) are probably the best biblical passages on trying to understand the concept of faith and works.

It's complicated. Man is incapable of saving himself regardless of how rigidly he attempts to follow God's law and is saved entirely through faith in God and by the grace that is bestowed on him by God. However, it is impossible to truly have faith without having works because the act of believing in God results in transformation that manifests itself in part through good deeds.

That's what Christians believe for the most part. Some Christians strongly believe in predestination though and so even the act of faith is something that God did for you.