View Full Version : Resteal by a solid opponent
durron597
08-07-2005, 06:20 PM
Normally this would be an insta muck. However, stack sizes.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Hero (t2388)
Button (t3081)
SB (t2443)
BB (t1245)
UTG (t2210)
MP (t2133)
Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t400</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t1245</font>, Hero ???
tigerite
08-07-2005, 06:21 PM
Drops it - fast.
Nick B.
08-07-2005, 06:23 PM
I think it is a call. getting over 2-1 with KQ I think is ok, having him covered also helps since you can still rebuild if you lose the hand.
durron597
08-07-2005, 06:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Drops it - fast.
[/ QUOTE ]
Look at my pot odds. This isn't nearly that obvious.
mlagoo
08-07-2005, 06:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Drops it - fast.
[/ QUOTE ]
Look at my pot odds. This isn't nearly that obvious.
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I call here every time. You're being offered 2:1 on a hand that is very rarely going to be worse than a 60-40 dog.
Apart from just looking at it via pot odds, there is also the "metagame" of showing that you were "stealing" with a reasonably strong hand, and that at the same time you won't back down from resteals.
Add to that the fact that you still have a legitimate chance of recovering if you lose the pot, I think this is a definite call.
tigerite
08-07-2005, 06:27 PM
Yes, you have pot odds. But if you fold you still have 1900 and can go for another steal and still have 10bb if that fails, too. If you call this, you drop way down to ~1200 and all your future plays are gone. I really don't think it's worth it.
If I am in BB's position I love when people call with KQo in this position from a steal, as I usually have them dominated, and their 2:1 isn't in fact 2:1 at all. I really think pot odds are over-rated when it impacts on your ability to stack-build with a healthy amount of chips. I believe it's "letting go of some (probably only minor, too) EV here to gain more +EV possibilities later".
Shillx
08-07-2005, 06:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Drops it - fast.
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Look at my pot odds. This isn't nearly that obvious.
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If this were a cash game you would obviously call here. Since you need somewhat better odds to make this a +EV call, you are probably taking slightly the worst of it right now. However, since you can probably use these chips (if you win) to create bigger edges down the road, I feel like it is a call. Having the big stack here is worth a lot, and taking a small -EV race to obtain it is well worth it IMO.
Brad
Call. I think if you fold here you are sending a bad image to the rest of your table and your opponent.
If you are not willing to call this I probably would fold preflop.
Nottom
08-07-2005, 06:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you have pot odds. But if you fold you still have 1900 and can go for another steal and still have 10bb if that fails, too. If you call this, you drop way down to ~1200 and all your future plays are gone. I really don't think it's worth it.
[/ QUOTE ]
1200 is still a reasonable stack of 8BBs. Obviously you are the shorty, but you still have plenty of FE to go with your stack. If you win on the other hand you have the additional leverage of being the big stack. The pots odds are good enough that I think this is a pretty easy call.
I think SNG's are way too fast to fold here. The only hands you are afraid of are KK/AA. You are getting 2:1 so unless you KNEW they had AA/KK you are still getting odds to call. So what if you have 1200 chips, yes you aren't sitting well but you aren't dead yet.
If you aren't willing to call this push then fold preflop.
tigerite
08-07-2005, 06:35 PM
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I think SNG's are way too fast to fold here. The only hands you are afraid of are KK/AA. You are getting 2:1 so unless you KNEW they had AA/KK you are still getting odds to call. So what if you have 1200 chips, yes you aren't sitting well but you aren't dead yet.
If you aren't willing to call this push then fold preflop.
[/ QUOTE ]
And AK, AQ, QQ.
durron597
08-07-2005, 06:37 PM
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I think SNG's are way too fast to fold here. The only hands you are afraid of are KK/AA. You are getting 2:1 so unless you KNEW they had AA/KK you are still getting odds to call.
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If I *knew* he had AK or AQ or QQ I should fold as well.
Nick B.
08-07-2005, 06:39 PM
Board:
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 31.4642 % 30.86% 00.60% { KdQh }
Hand 2: 68.5358 % 67.94% 00.60% { QQ }
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 25.2261 % 24.65% 00.58% { KdQh }
Hand 2: 74.7739 % 74.20% 00.58% { AKo }
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 25.4822 % 24.91% 00.57% { KdQh }
Hand 2: 74.5178 % 73.95% 00.57% { AQo }
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 33.2029 % 32.85% 00.35% { KdQh }
Hand 2: 66.7971 % 66.44% 00.35% { 88+, ATs+, AJo+ }
tigerite
08-07-2005, 06:39 PM
The thing that bothers me is that he's a solid opponent, I could maybe, just about, see him doing this move with AJs, but probably not, and pairs down to about 88-99? So that leaves 88,99,TT,JJ you want to see, along with AJ, and all the others you don't.
mlagoo
08-07-2005, 06:39 PM
QQ you should call if it is turned face up.
Yes but the times he pushes with a PP you are a coinflip and getting laid well. You have outs versus AK/KQ/QQ and the pot odds justify gambling. All I meant was that the only hands you are in deep sh** against are AA/KK.
ABC poker imo.
tigerite
08-07-2005, 06:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Board:
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 31.4642 % 30.86% 00.60% { KdQh }
Hand 2: 68.5358 % 67.94% 00.60% { QQ }
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 25.2261 % 24.65% 00.58% { KdQh }
Hand 2: 74.7739 % 74.20% 00.58% { AKo }
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 25.4822 % 24.91% 00.57% { KdQh }
Hand 2: 74.5178 % 73.95% 00.57% { AQo }
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 33.2029 % 32.85% 00.35% { KdQh }
Hand 2: 66.7971 % 66.44% 00.35% { 88+, ATs+, AJo+ }
[/ QUOTE ]
Correct. 2 to 1 means you have to win 33% of the time.
Nick B.
08-07-2005, 06:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Correct. 2 to 1 means you have to win 33% of the time.
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Right, and he is getting a little over 2-1. And he isn't going to be crippled if he loses. And he will have a monster stack if he wins. If the stacks were reversed, I think you might be able to argue for a fold
Yes well if the cards were face up I would fold as well. However your cards are far more live versus AK/AQ/QQ than versus AA?KK. Versus his probable range of hands which could very well be something like ATs+, AJ+, 88+ you are getting laid too good to fold.
Again though, in my opinion if you aren't willing to call this push than fold preflop. Folding after raising to the short stacks push is weak sauce.
Shillx
08-07-2005, 06:44 PM
Do it against his range. Calling is correct CEV wise but not $EV wise. We assume that getting a big stack is worth the small -$EV hit right now.
Equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)
Hand 1: 33.9270 % [ 00.34 00.00 ] { KQo }
Hand 2: 66.0730 % [ 00.66 00.00 ] { AA-77, AKs-AJs, AKo-AJo }
Erik Blazynski
08-07-2005, 06:45 PM
SNGs are way to fast to be blowing half of your stack on a call like this. You are a dog to any pair and any Ace. Just get rid of it. You are not desperate, just fold and be done with it.
durron597
08-07-2005, 06:47 PM
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SNGs are way to fast to be folding in +EV situations.
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FYP
mlagoo
08-07-2005, 06:48 PM
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SNGs are way to fast to be blowing half of your stack on a call like this.
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its like halfway through the sentence i was with you and then you stopped making any sense.
sngs having a fast structure is another reason this is a call. how would the fast structure discourage a slight +cEV call here? it doesn't follow.
I think that is a really weak-tight and short sighted statement/response.
It does not matter how you got yourself into a position in poker, it only matters what the proper decision in the moment is. Right now you are getting the opporunity to call 845 chips to win 1870, that is 2.21:1. This call is going to somewhat cripple you if you lose, but you will not be super short. You will retain fold equity if you lose, which is the most important aspect of this hand.
Your hand is good, and you are in fantastic shape if you wind up racing in a pair. Yes he could have you crushed, big deal. Hopefully you'll suck out and have some guy calling you a donk for calling his push getting 2.21:1. Sucks to be him, he can load of a new SNG.
Fortune favors the bold.
Erik Blazynski
08-07-2005, 07:03 PM
Well my point is that chips are precious in a SNG. If you've got em, there is no reason to call off half of them when you are at BEST a slight dog. If you are calling off 1/4 of your stack here, then I call. But I place a higher value on number of chips than I do on EV in a SNG tournament. Another point is that your odds are what they are, they aren't getting any better at any point in this hand. This is just not a scenario that I would ever be excited about. But I also play every game like the prize is a million dollars, so I am likely a but more cautious.
You are losing money in the long run by playing in such a fashion imo.
EasilyFound
08-07-2005, 07:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This call is going to somewhat cripple you if you lose, but you will not be super short. You will retain fold equity if you lose, which is the most important aspect of this hand.
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At what point do you lose fold equity? How low does your xBB have to fold when you reach the point of losing FE?
Erik Blazynski
08-07-2005, 07:10 PM
I play the lower limits, 11 and 22, and I have to say that there are very few players that are paying attention, maybe about 3 of the 9 players. half of them are playing other games. Table image only doesn't play as much as it does in a live game.
I'd say 6-7xbb is the "red alert" stage of SNG aggression where you have FE versus people. Of course I think you still retain FE with 4-5xbb but people's calling ranges are going to get way wider.
It is those 3 out of the 9 you have to be worried about /images/graemlins/blush.gif
durron597
08-07-2005, 07:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I play the lower limits, 11 and 22, and I have to say that there are very few players that are paying attention, maybe about 3 of the 9 players. half of them are playing other games. Table image only doesn't play as much as it does in a live game.
[/ QUOTE ]
I had played with this villian before, they were one of the ones paying attention. And KQo is not at the very bottom of my range here.
fold preflop if you are not willing to make this call.
ChuckNorris
08-07-2005, 07:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Do it against his range. Calling is correct CEV wise but not $EV wise. We assume that getting a big stack is worth the small -$EV hit right now.
Equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)
Hand 1: 33.9270 % [ 00.34 00.00 ] { KQo }
Hand 2: 66.0730 % [ 00.66 00.00 ] { AA-77, AKs-AJs, AKo-AJo }
[/ QUOTE ]
I would put villain on a slightly looser range.. I'd at least include KQo and ATo. But I don't suppose that would change things so dramatically that this wouldn't clearly be a fold. (Not a clear fold, but clearly a fold /images/graemlins/smile.gif) What's there to argue about after Nottom's post /images/graemlins/confused.gif
ChuckNorris
08-07-2005, 07:50 PM
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fold preflop if you are not willing to make this call.
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What's wrong with being able to get away when a villain wakes up with what is most likely to be a dominant hand?
durron597
08-07-2005, 10:00 PM
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What's there to argue about after Nottom's post /images/graemlins/confused.gif
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If you remove AJo and ATs and 88 from the range it's much closer.
Because if you fold here you are showing that you are willing to fold a hand from a steal position after raising and being pushed back at. If you fold here you can expect that (and while this may not be true against complete donks) that they will begin playing back at you. You are getting 2.21:1 pot odds, if you are not willing to call here against villain's range, what exactly are you waiting for?
We are gambling here.
Tony Corbett
08-07-2005, 10:30 PM
If the general feeling is that the pot odds are about right for the call then it's a neutral situation so calling or folding are equally vaild.
Personally I'd fold in this spot because not all chips were created equal, your're risking chips that take you below average stack in whats basically a gamble. I like to think that I have enough of an edge that I try to avoid pure gambles as much as possible.
As for the image argument for calling, fine I only fold once in this spot if someone thinks they can resteal great, next time I'm calling and hopefully they've dropped their resteal standards.
lastchance
08-07-2005, 10:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's there to argue about after Nottom's post /images/graemlins/confused.gif
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If you remove AJo and ATs and 88 from the range it's much closer.
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Yeah, like a solid opponent is going to fold AJ, ATs or 88..
Just not going to happen enough of the time. Call, you're getting the odds.
And mucking here means you might restolen out, a lot of the time.
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