the amount of cheating in poker

[hot tub man # 1]

I've been fooling around on RPG a bit lately and keep coming across numerous posts about cheating. One former cheat, who doesnt appear to be too popular among the rest of the posters claims, there is cheating the majority of high stakes poker games. How can this be true if the same well known players, Hennigan, Forrest, Harmon, etc keep beating the games? How much card marking and collusion really goes on at the higher limits? Anyone have a good idea?

This same player also claims to be cashing out 5 figues a month playing online, so perhaps I shouldnt take his opinions so seriously.

[D.J.]

One of my pro friends in Vegas didn't say there is a lot of cheating going on, however, my friend did say that at least 2 very high profile players were cheaters that they knew of, and would never play in the same game as them. I don't know how much factual info there was behind that or speculation, but I wouldn't expect to hear BS from this respected pro. I'm not really worried about the players that were mentioned b/c I'm not going to be playing that high any time soon, however, I can say that there is a fair amount of collusion/team playing at upper mid-limits that I KNOW of. Cheating is not rampant, however it does exist, wherever there is money involved, you can bet scams are near. One more quote from my Texas buddies, "The fleas come with the dog".

-D.J.

[Grambo]

You are a fool if you don't listen to what Russ has to say. He knows of which he speaks. I was fired from 2 different LARGE cardrooms for going to management when I saw what was going on. I don't post on RGP, but read most every post written about cheating, and can verify a lot of what Russ says from PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE, and have heard a lot more from reliable sources. Anyone to think a poker table with thousands of dollars on it isn't going to try to be scammed in some way by someone is a fool.

[**MR.MANHATTAN**]

plenty of cheating going on,from the philipino mafia at the 1-2 games in comm. to the highest stakes games in bellagio........russ might not be liked,but he's honest.

[Howard Burroughs]

Hi MM,

Can you back up your Bellagio statement with any proof?

Or is this just more of your misinformation ala Vegas rakes, Western poker room, your comments on Nick B & Russ H, your comments about the El Cortez players & managment teaming up against tourists (LOL), etc,etc,etc!

I know you told Dave Keiser that most of your posts are meant to be funny. Being a fountain of misinformation is no laughing matter IMHO.


I don't mean to sound sour, but coming to 2+2 and saying what you just said about the Bellagio is pretty serious stuff. How about some facts to back it up?


Or an apology to Doug Dalton?


Thanks in advance.


Best Wishes

Howard

[Tommy Angelo]

"I don't mean to sound sour, but coming to 2+2 and saying what you just said about the Bellagio is pretty serious stuff. How about some facts to back it up?"

Howard,

I am woefully uninformed on this topic because when people talk about bad stuff that has no effect on me, I run away with my ears covered.

But ...

And I ask this not just of you, but of anyone concerned about cheating at the big games at the Bellagio.

Why do you care?

Let's say it was proved, or merely conjectured, that there was cheating on the PGA golf tour. Would that affect any of your golfing decisions?

I just don't see how the goings on inside one of the smallest player pools in the country has anything to do with you or me.

with warmth,

Tommy

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Tommy, I do not have any information about whether cheating occurs at Bellagio, and thus, I am certainly not qualified to comment. I can only say that I think we should win by skill rather than shill. And, like Howard, I care because I think cheating is wrong at any time, at any place, in any game, and with any player(s). Just because we don't play in those games does not mean we aren't interested in their integrity. Babe /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

[Jimbo]

Tommy were these players born high rollers or did they perhaps work there way up through the ranks like many players here on these forums aspire to do? If the latter is more likely then why would they just now start cheating (if they are, I am not accusing anyone of that at all)? So your comment about why would Howard care is way out of line or at the very least not well thought out prior to your posting. If it is possible to work your way up so to speak by cheating then we would be at risk at most any limit. Make any sense Tommy? Sticking your head in the sand simply makes you look like an ostrich.

"I am woefully uninformed on this topic because when people talk about bad stuff that has no effect on me, I run away with my ears covered." I believe I have addressed this comment sufficiently.

"Let's say it was proved, or merely conjectured, that there was cheating on the PGA golf tour. Would that affect any of your golfing decisions? " Last time I checked this was a poker forum. Ask this same question on a golf forum and marvel at what kind of responses you elicit.

"I just don't see how the goings on inside one of the smallest player pools in the country has anything to do with you or me." I hope after reading my post you will at least reconsider this statement.

Edited Below:

Although I think some of your poker theory is a bit kooky I have come to respect you through your posts on this forum as well as your articles. Please do not take the matter of potential cheating in poker lightly whether you believe it affects you directly today or not.

Regards,

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

My position is that you should always be vigilant in the games that you are in. I'm not as confident as I once was to the games at the middle limits being totally clean.

It seems as though they have gotten a little tougher, probably due to the poor economy, higher rakes, and terroism threats. Thus certain fairly good players are not doing as well as they once were, and this leads to increased pressure on their life styles. So I feel that certain combinations in some of the games need to be watched closer. So again, always paying attention, and helping to police the games is important.

Best wishes,
Mason

[D.J.]

Howard,
I don't know who you are, or anything about you, but I'm going to assume you've been around a little bit. You've got to know that cheating goes on EVERYWHERE from home games to casinos, and I'd venture to say that private games are more straightforward than casinos, the ones I've played in at least do background checks, no casino will ever do that. So, knowing that cheating does exist why would you not accept the fact that cheating goes on at one of the top poker rooms in the world being the Bellagio. People will take an edge anyway they can get it, like I said in my earlier post, it's probably not rampant, but come on you know it happens. I refuse to believe that every poker game I sit in is 100% clean 100% of the time, no matter what the limit or the place. You defend the Bellagio as if you were part owner, like the place is exempt from having cheats come in. It seems to me that if I were a cheat, the Bellagio would be a prime spot seeing how they routinely spread some of the highest limits anywhere in the world, does the casino do a background check before you get to play w/ the big chips, I don't think so, all you gotta have is money, and cheats will find a way to do their job. Scams are all around you open your eyes and just accept it, it probably rarely occurs, but to say that it doesn't at all is very naive.

-D.J.

[Howard Burroughs]

"I am woefully uninformed on this topic because when people talk about bad stuff that has no effect on me, I run away with my ears covered. But ...
And I ask this not just of you, but of anyone concerned about cheating at the big games at the Bellagio.
Why do you care?"


I care because.......


1) Doug Dalton (Director of Poker Operations for Bellagio) has always been very generous to myself and friends. Even though I play pretty low stakes. we've been treated like royalty. I just hate to see a class guy like that (with a big heart), slandered without facts. Especially on a respected site like 2+2.


2) MM Light said,
"plenty of cheating going on,from the philipino mafia at the 1-2 games in comm. to the highest stakes games in bellagio........russ might not be liked,but he's honest."


He did not say, "Cheating may be going on." He said, PLENTY of cheating IS going on at the highest stakes Bellagio.
Call me a country bumpkin from Missouri but I say "Show me". Back it
up.


Then he adds insult to injury with his Russ is honest line. Ask Mason, David or Ray how honest Russ is.


I'm sure some of what Russ says in his 1,000,001 rgp posts are true. But he himself has admitted to putting out misinformation. And he could not give Gary Carson a single solid piece of information/evidence in a phone conversation about ANY cheating at Bellagio or any Vegas cheating in the modern era!


3) I care because there could be a trickle down effect. When he says plenty of cheating at the highest stakes games at Bellagio, if MM Light has credibility from a potential 2+2 reader; our 2+2 lurker may not know what "Highest limits" means. And stay away from any poker playing on his next trip to the desert. For god's sake, Russ said one world class player (Ted F) was wearing an ear piece in cahoots with management at Bellagio in order to cheat, that Stu Ungar wore x-ray glasses to win world championships, etc. etc. (no, I'm not making these Russ G accusations up, for those unfamiliar with rgp Russ).


And to think, MM Light said, "Russ might not be liked, but he's honest".


*********************************

More Tommy:

"Let's say it was proved, or merely conjectured, that there was cheating on the PGA golf tour. Would that affect any of your golfing decisions?"


I can't relate to golf. But what if Tommy Angelo decided to enter a poker tournament and won the damn thing. Then someone came onto 2+2 and said Tommy won the tournament because he cheated. Just because I did not play in that tournament (or that I'm a little peon kitchen table player), as a reader of 2+2 and as friend of Tommy Angelo's AND as a believer in truth, justice & fair play, I want someone to back up those accusations with fact or be exposed for the fraud they are. One, or the other; facts or fraud.


More Tommy,


"I just don't see how the goings on inside one of the smallest player pools in the country has anything to do with you or me."


It has nothing to do with you or me and it has everything to do with you and me.
What those guys do at each other's house's is their business. When they are accused of working hand in hand with management to cheat
players (using electronic equipment according to Russ), & when they accuse Stu Ungar of winning championships by using x-ray vision glasses (according to Russ); I don't care how low I am on the poker food chain, I say SHOW ME the facts to back up your talk.
But maybe it's just me?


"with warmth,
Tommy"


Taco Bell's on me, next time I see ya partner.


Best of Luck

Howard

[Mason Malmuth]

To D.J.:

You wrote:

I refuse to believe that every poker game I sit in is 100% clean 100% of the time, no matter what the limit or the place.

As I have told other people in the past, if you feel this way, then you should absolutely never sit in a poker game. So my questions to you are, do you play poker and where do you play?

Good poker players are very knowledgeable about how hands should be played. The high limit games at Bellagio have a bunch of good players and it would be tough to put much over on them.

Also, your statements contradict. First, you won't play high but you claim to have first hand knowledge of cheating in the big games. If that's the case, please be specific because I want to know.

Best wishes,
Mason

[DanS]

Hi Mason,
"As I have told other people in the past, if you feel this way, then you should absolutely never sit in a poker game. So my questions to you are, do you play poker and where do you play?"

I am an avid, avid 2+2 devotee, and this is the first time I've ever thought that a statement you made, either on the board or in a book, was total and utter crap. Because you suspect cheating may infrequently occur, you should never play? Should you not play sports because that guy over there may be taking steroids and giving himself an unfair advantage? Just because someone cheats doesn't mean that YOU can't make money in that game. Even if it puts you at a situational disadvantage, if you're convinced it happens rarely, it won't hurt you much long term. I hope your comment was off the cuff, because it's lame to suggest that one should avoid poker because cheating may occur.

With regards,
Dan

[Josh W]

Mason wrote: "My position is that you should always be vigilant in the games that you are in."

Hmmm. Mason, you also wrote in a reply to DJ, that if one suspects cheating may occur, you not play poker at all.

I don't get it. Why be "vigilant" without being suspicious? And why be in a game, if you should never play at all.

Did you or did you not order the code red?

Josh

[RiverMel]

I completely agree with you. Mason's statement is analagous to another fallacy I've heard (this one's not from Mason though): "Never, ever drink when playing poker." That's pure unadulterated B.S. If I can drink and still be better than enough opponents at the table to have positive EV, I should elect to play in that game. Now, perhaps I am sacrificing a bit of EV by drinking, but the game will still be positive, and if I gain more utility from drinking than I would have from the extra winnings had I played sober, I most certainly should drink while playing. It surprises me to see such great poker players frequently make such fallacious statements about the outside (not "strategy") elements of the game on a regular basis. /forums/images/icons/club.gif

[Tommy Angelo]

"Just because we don't play in those games does not mean we aren't interested in their integrity."

For me it's the other way around. Just because I don't play in a game is exactly why I am not interested in its integrity.

Tommy

[Tommy Angelo]

Howard,

That you wish to defend the integrity of a friend is a good reason to be concerned about the accusations, IMO. That there might be a trickle down effect that lowers the number of transient players that enter the games you play in is another good reason, IMO. You made me realize that if the situation were in my back yard instead of yours, I might share your concerns.

Tommy

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi DanS:

You wrote:

Because you suspect cheating may infrequently occur, you should never play?

My understanding from the poster was that he thought cheating was rampant. If you think that cheating infrequently occurs I of course agree with you.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Josh:

I think you need to read the posts a little closer. I'm replying to a poster who seems to think that cheating is "EVERYWHERE." That implies to me that he thinks it is rampant. If I thought that was the case, I wouldn't play poker.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Tommy Angelo]

Jimbo,

"Please do not take the matter of potential cheating in poker lightly whether you believe it affects you directly today or not."

I believe that there must be some degree of remoteness for which it is illogical to expend any energy on concern. What if the accused cheating was within a small group of players in Paris? For me, Paris is sufficiently removed from me that it would be silly for me to care. So is Vegas. But not San Jose or San Bruno or Colma. I suspect that if the accusations of cheating were about the local $1000 buy-in no-limit games, I would be very much concerned, and the Vegas players wouldn't.

Tommy

[Schmed]

I would say don't get drunk when you play but a drink or two wont do anything but maybe make you a little more relaxed

[rkiray]

Sorry Mason,

I think you need to read the post a little more closely. Yes the poster said it was everywhere, but was rare. His views appeared like common sense to me. I think you mixed up his ideas with someone else's. The earlier poster was correct. You have the logical inconsistencies in this thread. (Perhaps you were in a hurry).

Rick

[RiverMel]

Poster said: I refuse to believe that every poker game I sit in is 100% clean 100% of the time, no matter what the limit or the place.

Mason said: As I have told other people in the past, if you feel this way, then you should absolutely never sit in a poker game.

It sounds like from this response that you indeed were saying that if anyone was suspicious of any cheating then they should never play. (Perhaps only because the excerpt you chose was only claiming that he believed that not all games are always clean).

[Josh W]

Mason -

You quoted the following in:

I refuse to believe that every poker game I sit in is 100% clean 100% of the time, no matter what the limit or the place.

then replied with:

As I have told other people in the past, if you feel this way, then you should absolutely never sit in a poker game.


All that D.J. was saying was "there is some game, somewhere, that is not 100% clean, at some point in time". It's right there. And you say that people who feel this way shouldn't play poker.

As such, the ONLY people who should EVER, according to you, play poker, are people who think that poker is 100% clean 100% of the time.

So again I ask, why the need to be 'vigilant' about maintaining a clean game if you (a hypothetical person who takes a great leap of faith that games are always clean) are certain that there is never any cheating?

And the reason I'm pursuing this with you is because I am curious. I am not suspicious whenever I sit down...the only thing I usually check out is if people are trying to short the pot...though I'm usually aware of tons. Does it get to the point where you are confident of the competency of the dealers, or do you remain on the lookout at all times when playing in your normal games?

Regards,

Josh

[Josh W]

Sorry Mason, I hadn't seen your above response to Dan S.

Although I still am curious what degree (if it can be quantified) you remain vigilant.

Josh

[Mason Malmuth]

I think you need to read the whole post. I certainly did not read it the way you are.

MM

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Josh:

You wrote:

Does it get to the point where you are confident of the competency of the dealers, or do you remain on the lookout at all times when playing in your normal games?

I laughed when I read that sentence. While dealers are getting better, there are still too many that are not competent. And many of the competent ones are only competent some of the time and don't pay attention much of the rest of the time. So I do try to pay attention, and so should you.

Best wishes,
mason

[D.J.]

Once again Dan backs up my statements w/ a very valid analogy and one that I can most definitely relate to. Cheating in some way or form is going to occur, there's not much one can do about it. Dan brings up the point about steroids in sports, being that sports is my profession, this is pretty important stuff. I KNOW that I have/will face pitchers who use steroids, I KNOW that I have/will compete w/ guys on my team and other teams that use unfair advantages, it's a part of life, all you can do is deal with it. The sports fields are much like poker tables in that there's a lot of money on the table and people can and will do what they can to get their piece of it. As an avid poker player, you have to KNOW that cheating is going to occur or has occurred in your presence it's just the way things are and the way people are. Like Dan pointed out a player can still make money playing cards even though cheating may be sometimes going on. I don't think it happens near enough to make a difference in a solid player's career, but as I said earlier, to say that cheating does not occur is very naive, so KNOWING that it does occur at some point, a player basically just has to deal w/ it.

-D.J.

[D.J.]

Cheating is not rampant, however it does exist, wherever there is money involved, you can bet scams are near.

Mason,

How do you misread this?

-D.J.

[D.J.]

As I have told other people in the past, if you feel this way, then you should absolutely never sit in a poker game. So my questions to you are, do you play poker and where do you play?

Mason,
What you said about not playing at all makes no sense and is not even worth responding to. As far as do I play poker... no, I just make up all these posts for no reason because I have nothing else better to do. Now to answer your only relevant question, I live in LA and frequent all the local cardrooms, I also used to live in Las Vegas before here where I probably played at every card room available, and Dallas before that where they only have underground games.

Also, your statements contradict. First, you won't play high but you claim to have first hand knowledge of cheating in the big games. If that's the case, please be specific because I want to know.

I have second hand knowledge of cheating in the big games, if you would re-read the post. I am friends w/ a well respected pro whom you probably know, and that is the person who said they would never play w/ a couple of players b/c they cheat. For your second question, sorry, I'm not going to be specific about names that I myself can not confirm, I was merely relaying information from a respectable source.

-D.J.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi D.J.

You wrote:

Cheating in some way or form is going to occur, there's not much one can do about it. Dan brings up the point about steroids in sports, being that sports is my profession, this is pretty important stuff. I KNOW that I have/will face pitchers who use steroids, I KNOW that I have/will compete w/ guys on my team and other teams that use unfair advantages, it's a part of life, all you can do is deal with it.

Like I said, if this is the way you feel, you shouldn't play poker. Part of the reason for this is that as an expert, your edge still isn't that large. So if it is a certainty that you are going to be cheated, I don't think you should play.

You wrote:

Like Dan pointed out a player can still make money playing cards even though cheating may be sometimes going on. I don't think it happens near enough to make a difference in a solid player's career, but as I said earlier, to say that cheating does not occur is very naive, so KNOWING that it does occur at some point, a player basically just has to deal w/ it.

Well here's the problem. You can't have it both ways. If cheating doesn't happen enough to make a difference in a solid player's career, then it is hardly happening at all. That's because solid players only have a small overall edge.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Howard Burroughs]

Hi DJ,

You said,
"to say that cheating does not occur is very naive"


Well who in the world said that?


I know I sure did not. As a matter of fact, what's with your "Open your eyes Howard"?


Show me where I said there is no cheating in poker. I just asked a guy to back up his stamement that there IS PLENTY of cheating going on in the Bellagio high stakes games. That's a serious charge to make. How about some facts?


I at no time said that there is no cheating in poker. Just in the past few years we've seen scandals at the Plaza, Sam's Town and The Orleans. These are not rumors. These are documented at Nevada Gaming Control.


Re-read what I wrote dude. My eyes ARE wide open.


Best of Luck

Howard

PS, If your friend knows something is going on, why doesn't he go to Gaming?

[scalf]

/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif hey, imagine you are a casino executive and ya hear all this talk about cheating/collusion...see some dirty, dresssed to attend cockfight, no shave in 10 days, cash out 10k, knowing your casino does not get that cash....these riff-raff lowlives might drive out real people that want a "high class vegas experience"; and rumours of cheating could spread to casino games....hey do the sensible thing..shut the card room down...put slots in...laff to bank...gl..jmho /forums/images/icons/cool.gif /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Scalf:

I've seen exactly this happen. Once a poker room develops a cheating reputation, it is doomed. This is true whether this reputation is deserved or not.

As for the rest of your post I'm reminded of a time in the mid-1990s when I was in the Dessert Inn. It was one of the last times Frank Sinatra played in town and there was a large show line, and given by the way the people lined up were dressed, these were the type of customers that this casino wanted.

In the corner of the DI was a small poker room, and at the same time they were having a $12 buy-in poker tournament. And, given by the way these people were dressed, it was obvious that these were the type of people that the casino did NOT want. Their poker room closed a few months later.

Best wishes,
Mason

[**MR.MANHATTAN**]

sort of like horse racing? u know some races are fixed? yes? as long as u have the fixed horse. as for cheating in the bellagio tommy, cmon. theres cheating at the bike and commerce to. lets be for real......and i dont mean card mechanics tommy,i mean2-3 guys/gals playing out the same bankroll in a 60-120 game,30-60.......ahh whats the use,who cares......play on,play on

[**MR.MANHATTAN**]

letsset the record straight here: I have personally witenessed cheating at the commerce in l.a., i have seen teams of players at the bellagio splitting their roll in the bathroom and discussing the "arab" in seat 3,i dont care at all since i play 4-8 and even there i have had to play against not very good team players. I know for a fact anytime there is gambling going on anywhere in the world there is some sort of chicanery going on,just the way it is,from poker,horse racing,jai alai,dogs......i am not here to provide proof,for if u believe evry game is honest,good for you......2. as for comments re: nick b. all i ever did was defend his right to protect his wife against people slurring her. 3. howard u know the western had a poker table.3. i have seen a dealer muck a tourists strt flush while playing,to award the pot to a local w/ a ace hi flush and after i spoke up it was henmmming and hawing....i have never played in that game again. 5. If u dont think dd was a ?friend? lol,of tony the ant ask him.6. you are a brown noser ,for why i dont know,u sound educated,reasonable and yes bitter,but for you to state that there i s no cheating going on in the poker world u are naive, notice i have not cursed you or spoken ill of you. I'll say it again,,..WHERE THERE IS GAMBLING THERE IS CHEATING,DRUGS,PROSTITUTION,keep your head in the sand. I wouldnt go out of way to prove it if i could. and there is no cheating at the bay area clubs. I have not been there to see it,so there is none at all. ok? every body happy?

[**MR.MANHATTAN**]

I'll say it again clearly....Howard,There is cheating going on,i've seen it as far as team play. 2. i've seen and played in a game at el cortez where they juked a tourist out of apot,ileft never to play poker there again. 3. i only played devils advocate w/ the russ hamilton affair,and will state it again for the record...udont talk about someones wife whitin earshot of her husband,no class. 4. u say so your self that russ has some validity,and yes he is a confessed cheat,he is honest about that. 5. Tony spilatro was REALLY a VIOLENT GANGSTEr and i do apologize for the lackey statement towards doug d.,thats all i apologize for. guess u wont see this post though. I will not back down from my statement that there is plenty of colllusion online and in B AND M est. not marked decks,i have not seen one. yet. But teams i have seen at every level i have played in up to 15-30 and a few times i encountered team play at the Bellagio,and no i did not report it, once they were so bad at 4-8 i won and the other time in a 15-30 game i got up and left. TO ANYONE I HAVE OFFENDED I APOLOGIZE, EXCEPT your pal david keiser who is more obnoxious and ruder than i'll ever be. MR.MANHATTAN

[Jimbo]

MM wrote "WHERE THERE IS GAMBLING THERE IS CHEATING,DRUGS,PROSTITUTION,......"

Woohoo!! Three out of four isn't bad at all! Where do I sign up? That is unless the prostitutes are gonna cheat me out of my drugs and gambling money! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[**MR.MANHATTAN**]

JIM, whether you meant it or not,u made me really laff..thx. When i posted here i was not trying to upset or insult anyone. I might say what i do with conviction,but thats me. So again if i insulted you or your pals im sorry. from now on i lurk and will not post...but thx for the laffs. Mr.M /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

[Howard Burroughs]

Thanks for taking the time to post. Again, I'm not bitter. I just like facts.

I agree with you that there will always be some form of cheating somewhere in the world. If someone knows about it in my part of the world (even if at stakes higher then I play), I simply say, "Show me the money".

I at no time claim there is zero cheating in poker. I've seen dealers fired, floor men fired, & have even been asked to join a cheating ring myself (back in January of 1988).

My head is not in the sand. I just want all the information I can get.

*********************

As far as your brown nosing comment.

The two card room managers who have done the most cool things for me over the years........

Jim Greenwood - Formerly of the Las Vegas Regent. No longer in Vegas TTBOMK. BTW, the Regent is another room where honest Russ did not have his facts straight. I played in that room everyday and his comments about the Regent were way off.


Doug Dalton - Bellagio

I hardly even play at the Bellagio but I still think he's an alright guy.





I'm sometimes told by friends that I'm too pro 2+2. Well I think they have the best books and the best website. Mason is my favorite author. Ray Zee is the nuts and Sklansky is the top mind in poker.

So if someone asks me where to go to learn poker, I'm gonna say 2+2 before I say UPF. Sorry if that sounds like brown nosing.


Thanks again for responding. I know we can be friends.


Best of Luck

Howard

[**MR.MANHATTAN**]

howard,read my other posts today. What you are saying is that you have never ever seen team play at the bellagio? u have never witnessed cheating at el cortez? u ask me for proof,hahahaha,yea ok...im a poker police? The real question is why you are so against me stating what i will on a open forum? And why are you putting words in my mouth? Either there is or there is not cheating? which is it? In your honest opinion has there ever been team play at any casino you have been in? Stop stirring [censored] and telling people what i say. I am a man and step up and admit when im wrong. Did you read where i apologize to people i mightve offended or did you miss that part? Are you man enough to admit when you are wrong? Like giving me flack for there being no table,currently at the Western? big deal. For knocking your beloved El cortez? Grab yourself man,hear yourself. Why are you not blasting your pal Dave keiser for being insultory towards people and using such profanity? Is that acceptable behavior? You defend his offenses that others also abhor.Yet u scathe me w/your bitter reportoire for agreeing with,not defending, a self professed cheat? You my friend are looking to start trouble and are a mean bitter person IMO. You condone rude behavior,and bring up petty mistakes to make yourself look good? I look forward to meeting you in person and discussing these things like a gentlemen ,maybe we can resolve our differences over coffee, for i am done posting here,but will avail myself of the posts that are made. Goodbye sir,good luck.MR.M

[Howard Burroughs]

"howard,read my other posts today. What you are saying is that you have never ever seen team play at the bellagio?"

I have not seen team play at Bellagio. Note: I'm not saying it does not exist. There or anywhere else. I'm saying I have not seen it there.


"u have never witnessed cheating at el cortez?"

No, I have not.

"u ask me for proof,hahahaha,yea ok...im a poker police? The real question is why you are so against me stating what i will on a open forum?"

You can say anything you want.I just want to see facts to back up serious charges. I don't think that is asking too much. I'm sorry if that sounds bitter. It is not meant to sound that way.

"And why are you putting words in my mouth? Either there is or there is not cheating? which is it?"

I don't take issue with anyone who states there is cheating in poker.

But when you name a local room as having plenty of cheating going on (in high stakes games) and state that Russ may not be liked but he is honest; well Russ has stated about a gazilion times that Bellagio management is on the take. When you tell people that he is honest, even though you did not say the Bellagio floor is on the take, you give credence to a man who does say that.




"In your honest opinion has there ever been team play at any casino you have been in?"

Yes. The Sundance poker room comes to mind (now Fitzgeralds, they have not had a poker room in over a decade, btw) They were infested with teams.


"Stop stirring [censored] and telling people what i say. I am a man and step up and admit when im wrong. Did you read where i apologize to people i mightve offended or did you miss that part?"

I saw that part & thanked you for it, if you saw my post.


"Are you man enough to admit when you are wrong?"

I would like to think so.


"Like giving me flack for there being no table,currently at the Western? big deal."

You said there was live poker at the Western. I just would hate to think of someone going out of their way, after reading your first Western post, to indulge in all the Western has to offer only to find out there is no poker down there.



"For knocking your beloved El cortez?"

The El Cortez can be a lot of fun at times. Though I have logged many hours there in the past two decades, it's not where I spend most of my time these days. Though I plan on going back real soon.


"Grab yourself man"

That might hurt.


"hear yourself. Why are you not blasting your pal Dave keiser for being insultory towards people and using such profanity?"


Does Dave cuss?


"Is that acceptable behavior? You defend his offenses that others also abhor.Yet u scathe me w/your bitter reportoire for agreeing with,not defending, a self professed cheat?"


I believe Russ G has a lot to offer. When he says things about people I know, I say what are the facts?

"You my friend are looking to start trouble and are a mean bitter person IMO."

Again, I'm sorry if I come across mean & bitter. That is not my intent.



"You condone rude behavior,and bring up petty mistakes to make yourself look good?"

Again, not my intent, just trying to get to the facts.


"I look forward to meeting you in person and discussing these things like a gentlemen ,maybe we can resolve our differences over coffee, for i am done posting here,but will avail myself of the posts that are made. Goodbye sir,good luck.MR.M"


Looking forward to meeting you. I will be at the Jason's Deli (3910 S. Maryland Pkwy near Flamingo, 893-9799 call for better directions) this Wednesday from 2:00 until 4:00 or so. There will be a group of poker players there, from rank beginners to 30-60 pros, talking poker shop. You & any 2+2 readers/lurkers are welcome to come by and talk poker. If you come by this week Mr M, I'll be happy to buy you lunch (BTW, we may be somewhere else the week after).

Of course I may get the chance to meet you at the Bellagio 2+2 seminar on Monday. But if not at Bellagio then please come over to Jason's east side on Wednesday and allow me to buy you lunch.


Best of Luck

Howard

[PokerScene]

One of the longstanding complaints that casinos have had about poker rooms is the cost of the dealers...Has anyone thought of the possibility of computerized LIVE tables...no dealer to tip, or to pay, but a live experience as far as TELLS and atmosphere!

[**MR.MANHATTAN**]

Jasons is a great place,reminds me of my beloved ny,but i got a feeling that i will be villified and just short of crucified??? im not looking for trouble and being told how stuopid i am. And by the by if u saw daves posts to me and others on rgp u know he curses and talks ugly. At the seminars mon. i might approach u alone for maybe we can talk re: cheating and i can point out some cliques to you. I'm not going to start going to mgmt. pointing out things they might or might not know and tolerate. Thesame way you probaly nevr went to gaming or anyone in 1988 when u were approached to join a "mob". There will be no more mud slinging by me. For what i say re : russ g's posts,the first time was the day after i met a 80 yr old man,software dev. that came from seattle and was staying at flamingo hilt. he told me stories that made me believe he was Russ. but i put it together that russ is younger. So i figured that the old man was being honest and did not seem to be vindictive that there was some truth in russ g's posts. I never meant to validate all of what he posts,except that there is cheating. So im done arguing and pretty much posting in these forums,for it is not at all what i thought,much more intellects stroking their egos and talk of war ,pro and con, and everything else besides poker. I DO ADMIT I GET SUCKED INTO PLAYING DEVILS ADVOCATE MUCH TO OFTEN....but i mean no harm to anyone and it would trouble me to think i have. That lunch at jasons sounds good but It sounds like a setup for a hit. ya know what i mean? Mr. M /forums/images/icons/ooo.gif

[Howard Burroughs]

Jason's is no set-up. Come on by & I'll buy you lunch. All that is going to happen is you are going to meet a lot of nice people. No one is going to give you a hard time. Heck, my wife is going to be there. I've got to be on good behavoir when she is around.

Gotta Run

Best Wishes

Howard

[Hobart]

A very long series of posts with many viewpoints,but in my estimation there is some cgestion and collusion from the home games all the way to the high limt at the Bellagio.If anyone disagrees I know a bridge for sale in Brooklyn.

[**MR.MANHATTAN**]

brooklyn bridge? cheap?

[Ulysses]

Al said re: Wednesday poker group: We are recreational players, props, and professionals playing from low limits to $80-$160, both live and online, with quite a few writers.

Howard said re: Wednesday poker group: There will be a group of poker players there, from rank beginners to 30-60 pros, talking poker shop.

Al says players in the group play to 80-160 and Howard says they play to 30-60. If that's not hard evidence of a conspiracy, cheating, lying, and thieving, I don't know what is. Based on this, I am never playing poker again in Vegas. I hope this exposure, based on months of investigation, will help protect many fellow 2+2ers from this devious scheme. Nice try, guys.

[Jimbo]

Ulysses, perhaps Al was speaking in Canadian Dollars! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[AceHigh]

"and this leads to increased pressure on their life styles."

I don't know if you are aware of economics studies and ethics, but these studies confirm you suspicions. That is people, ie. executives of companies, are much more likely to cook the books of a formerly successfull company, than companies that are trying to become profitable.

Seems human nature is such that people are more likely to cheat to maintain success, than in trying to achieve it. I guess people don't miss what they don't have.

[andyfox]

If certain fairly good players are now cheating, in order to maintain their lifestyles, will they ever go back to not cheating? Won't a player now used to cheating, and thus, one would assume, doing better than when they weren't cheating, continue to cheat forever?

And if this is the case, won't there always be an ever-increasing amount of cheating in poker?

[Howard Burroughs]

Nice post Uly.

Actually we are both right. Al was talking about Wednesdays in general. I was talking about this Wedsnesday specifically.

When Al wrote that post (it's a repeat post BTW), Jim Brier had been coming to every Wednesday meeting for about two years. At the time of Al's post, JB was playing a lot of 80-160.

Jim has not been to many Wednesday meetings lately (though he did show up for Mason Malmuth's visit a few weeks back). He's busy as a bee getting his PhD right now.


Hope that clears up "WPDGgate" :-)


BTW, I know your post was in jest, just figured I'd mention that there was in fact a reason for the updated omission of the 80-160 (though we do have folks that drop in from time to time that play much higher then even 80-160).


Best of Luck

Howard